Jasper Avenue New Vision / Imagine Jasper Avenue

[ChazYEG]

I don't disagree. A lot of what you propose makes sense. Edmonton's historical built form hurts it and makes it hard to get rid of parking completely. A lot of the older apartments were not built with adequate parking nor parking garages, so street parking was a necessity. In addition, transit has never been that good in Edmonton and doesn't seem to be getting a lot better - we are still a winter city and expecting people to walk many blocks is a tough sell.

Unfortunately, Glenora is never going to be affordable and likely never going to be more lively/livable in this generation due to the extreme nimbyism. At least Westmount and other areas aren't going that way completely. That said, there was that Beljan project that didn't pass zoning on the west end steps away from a future LRT stop. There was also the excellent proposal next to Vi's for Pies that got promptly shutdown as well. I don't feel we are moving the goal posts enough in Edmonton, so looking at how to incrementally improve with what we have rather than massive cultural changes (increasing biking/walking) makes sense to me.

One ways seem like a good incremental step to reduce the number of lanes on Jasper/104 from a safety perspective and reducing vehicle volume. Starting with getting rid of 1-2 lanes would be an easier proposal than going down to two lanes. Policy changes/shifts occur over time and almost never fast. My thoughts on a central freeway were more historical wishful thinking than proposing that for today.

I'm a realist as you can likely tell.

Not all of the neighborhoods I mentioned would be affordable, but the city, on average, would be more mixed and affordable. If we had freeways, we would have the core completely cut off from the residential areas, like the vast majority of the major cities in North America. Even historically speaking, I am forever grateful we never had them built in the core, here.

Now, as for reducing lanes on Jasper and 104 Avenue, if we started cutting Jasper down to 2 lanes each way, a bike lane and larger, more welcoming sidewalks, with parking on both sides, I'd be happy already.

 

[TAS]

I don't feel we are moving the goal posts enough in Edmonton, so looking at how to incrementally improve with what we have rather than massive cultural changes (increasing biking/walking) makes sense to me.
Policy changes/shifts occur over time and almost never fast. My thoughts on a central freeway were more historical wishful thinking than proposing that for today.

I'm a realist as you can likely tell.

I think the last year in a pandemic has shown the opposite of this statement. I know our organization operates very differently from a year ago and the speed of change has greatly accelerated in many of our processes from what we had forecast a couple years ago.

Companies are serving their clients and customers differently than they imagined before - there has been all kinds of new innovations in the way things are done. We line up six feet apart in stores and it's now cultural norm to wear masks. I remember when recycling was first introduced to homes and there was a lot resistance and many people adapted and changed their behaviors quickly. And there are also cities who are starting to make notable strides in terms of introducing active transportation and redesigning streets.

 

[quit]

I think the last year in a pandemic has shown the opposite of this statement. I know our organization operates very differently from a year ago and the speed of change has greatly accelerated in many of our processes from what we had forecast a couple years ago.

Companies are serving their clients and customers differently than they imagined before - there has been all kinds of new innovations in the way things are done. We line up six feet apart in stores and it's now cultural norm to wear masks. I remember when recycling was first introduced to homes and there was a lot resistance and many people adapted and changed their behaviors quickly. And there are also cities who are starting to make notable strides in terms of introducing active transportation and redesigning streets.

Forced change and incremental change are different and ingrained behaviour is tough to change. Many of the sudden changes in the past year would not have happened without the catalyst - COVID.

Cities that have made larger shifts usually have catalysts at play. I equate it to being similar to the stock market, you don't see big swings unless there is a catalyst - everything else largely just follows the overall market. Without major catalysts, humans do not change fast and are generally adverse to change. There is a lot of research out there on change fatigue in the work place and other social domains. Recycling still had a massive advertising campaign when it was first launch and it was a slow roll out and not adopted over night.

It can definitely be done, but historically, change has happened incrementally. There are a ton of other social issues in North American society that are unfortunately, barely improving, yet are changing, and that is with key catalysts.

I don't think making drastic changes to our downtown road network over night has a big enough catalyst for majority support. Users here are a niche group. How do you change behaviour? Incrementally.

 

[TAS]

I don't think making drastic changes to our downtown road network over night has a big enough catalyst for majority support. Users here are a niche group. How do you change behaviour? Incrementally.

It will be interesting to see how Toronto's drastic change on Yonge Street - a 6km stretch of major roadway that never had a bike lane on it before and that is cutting its car lanes in half from 4 to 2 manages. This was a quick decision late in 2020 and it will be completed by late spring or summer.

Jasper Ave is much wider, has more lanes and has less traffic volume than Yonge Street but we can't manage?

In terms of culture change, Edmontonians purchased significantly more bikes last year than any year in its history. And this year the trend is continuing that bike shops are having trouble keeping stock.

'We cannot get enough bikes to meet the demand': Bike sales soar as another spring with COVID-19 nears

With travel restrictions in place, more and more people are staying put… which means the activity of cycling is picking up speed.

www.google.com

There is also an entire new culture of scootersfor transportation that did not exist a few years ago that also need to be addressed and recognized on our streets and sidewalks.

 

[thommyjo]

I think we have to empathize with driver's needs while our transit is still weak. But once valley line west finishes, I think there's good precedence to reduce the lanes on jasper and add better biking/scooter infrastructure. The whole west side still needs jasper to be a road to get to the core.

We really need to just improve our connectivity of bike lanes too. So many dead ends or interruptions in our current system. Not sure jasper is the best fix to that, but it could help. We need to start seeing the river valley edges as transporting infrastructure for bikes, not just running trails. And not to say we go destroy the natural beauty, but I think of so much of our river valley edge and how easy it would be build better bike lanes on them...

 

[quit]

It will be interesting to see how Toronto's drastic change on Yonge Street - a 6km stretch of major roadway that never had a bike lane on it before and that is cutting its car lanes in half from 4 to 2 manages. This was a quick decision late in 2020 and it will be completed by late spring or summer.

Jasper Ave is much wider, has more lanes and has less traffic volume than Yonge Street but we can't manage?

In terms of culture change, Edmontonians purchased significantly more bikes last year than any year in its history. And this year the trend is continuing that bike shops are having trouble keeping stock.

'We cannot get enough bikes to meet the demand': Bike sales soar as another spring with COVID-19 nears

With travel restrictions in place, more and more people are staying put… which means the activity of cycling is picking up speed.

www.google.com

There is also an entire new culture of scootersfor transportation that did not exist a few years ago that also need to be addressed and recognized on our streets and sidewalks.

Yeah, again, COVID is the catalyst though and people are largely using the said bikes in the summer time. I'd want solid data on how, where, and when those users are using their bikes versus anecdotal evidence from bike shops. Do another survey and ask how many of those bike buyers are biking in the winter on a regular basis. I imagine the statistics take a drastic drop.

4 to 2 isn't as big as what some are proposing for Jasper Ave going from 6 to 2 and 104 Ave shrinking as well once west LRT goes.

One way roads are a better incremental step and are proven to increase safety for other road users.

I'm not trying to start a fight here - I cycle myself and enjoy it and think we need more infrastructure. However, change under normal circumstances takes time. As @thommyjo pointed out, there are still other users that must be considered and as I have said, there are ways to do that in incremental steps that will enable us to reduce Jasper Ave traffic further in the future. If all you do is bike year round, all the power to you, but you do not represent the majority.

 

[TAS]

@westcoastjos I'm fine that we agree that we need more bike infrastructure. I'd like to see change happen faster than most in this regard for sure.
In my circle I know some people who don't feel comfortable biking on many of our streets for themselves or their kids so they primarily stick to designated paths. If we had more safe and inclusive streets I believe from looking at other cities' experiences that we would see significant increases in active transportation. As with all things, when it comes to how you design your streets, you reap what you sow and the only consideration we've had in roadway design is for cars.
COVID is the catalyst for many shifts in our behaviour but those changes are here and they are not all going away even when the pandemic ends. The large transition to work from home is here to stay. Our company has nearly 1,000 fewer people who will be travelling into downtown daily - mostly by cars, many using Jasper Avenue. Similar for some other companies, too.
Our roadways into downtown are going to have less traffic volume and we are also increasing public transportation options into downtown with the opening of a new lrt line this year. That is why some cities are acting now to enhance their streets in terms of transportation options - and they will reap what they sow.

 

[IanO]

See the forest for the trees folks.

In most cases we have very little pedestrian activity due to ease of car use, lack of density, our climate and our own personal experiences of putting certain transportation options first for a variety of reasons.

 

[IanO]

What is the carrot and what is the stick here?

 

[thommyjo]

• Carrot has to be much better transit. West, SW, and NW need it badly to get people out of cars.
• Carrot should also be innovative ideas like how singapore implemented a rewards system for healthy citizens using smart watches. What if bikers/active transport users were rewarded somehow? There are many benefits most of us here know (health, environment, mental well-being, financial), but a good ol "points or money" system could help? I imagine, similar to credit cards, have an up front bonus fee for joining, then some sort of ongoing benefit.
• We should also make biking more fun and attractive. The divide I feel right now is there's river valley riding, often requiring more advanced skills, knowledge of trails, and physical output, then there's simple city cycling like the separated bike lanes. What about the in-between though. That's why I think the vancouver seawall is so effective. It's not perfectly direct or efficient, but it's so enjoyable in its view, its wide and spacious, separated from cars and safe. We've sold off so much of our valley edges to residential use, but imagine if most of the river valley edge from downtown out to the east and west was made into bike lanes/multi use? Biking from Laurier Heights near the zoo or Beverly heights out east would be so fast, enjoyable, and efficient. To bike from jasper place to downtown right now is a mess of main roads, sidewalks, residential detours, multi use paths, narrow bridges (102) and finally dedicated bike lanes. What a mess. Imagine just biking to the valley edge, then it's a straight shot right to DT like a bike highway. Dropping down into the river valley and using the gravel paths is not as inclusive to less experienced riders, especially outside of summer months.

• As for sticks, the recent gas tax is a great call. I think, like a sales tax, it fairly hits those using it the most. Sadly, it will hurt those who have to use cars for work and are lower income harder than it will convince the windemere moms to stop buying escalades. But i think it's a step in the right direction.
• Allowing traffic to be bad instead of giving in to the fallacy of more lanes = better traffic flow. Terwillegar and the SW henday better be the last projects to add more capacity down south. If you live in edgemont, that's your choice haha. Deal with the bad traffic.
• Tax greenfield developments hard. It should be extremely expensive to build brand new houses that force the city/province to make more roads/schools/emergency services/hospitals. Until young people see buying and renovating an old mature house as better than buying a brand new one on the city edge, nothing will change.
• Look into property taxes being more weighted on sqft than property value. People buying 800sqft condos in the core shouldn't have to pay more than a 2200sqft new build outside the henday. We need to reward people living smaller, denser lifestyles.

 

[cliffapotamus]

remembered to get a photo today while it was light out. i guess even creosote breaks down over time lol. cool to see these! I'm almost surprised there weren't more!

 

[Airboy]

They will be pulling up ties all the way down Jasper.

 

[The_Cat]

I wonder how much work is remediation.

 

[TAS]

Sorry for the quality, pic is just a snapshot from a book I'm reading. Would have been nice if Jasper Ave was set up like this except the one way.
This is a six lane road in NY - I think Jasper is 7 lanes. We could have had 2 lanes of traffic in each direction, still with parking on both sides, bus lane and bike lane.

 

[CplKlinger]

They will be pulling up ties all the way down Jasper.

Are they remnants of the old streetcar system?

Sorry for the quality, pic is just a snapshot from a book I'm reading. Would have been nice if Jasper Ave was set up like this except the one way.
This is a six lane road in NY - I think Jasper is 7 lanes. We could have had 2 lanes of traffic in each direction, still with parking on both sides, bus lane and bike lane.

View attachment 312711

I just saw the first picture at first, and I was so confused about where the bike and bus lanes were supposed to be! That is a stunning difference, I'd also love to see something like that done along Jasper. My one concern here is that the bike lane appears to be a mixture of painted and protected, but protected lanes are really the only way to properly protect bikers in such a busy area. As far as the general concept goes though, this would make Jasper Ave much safer, and more inclusive and inviting for all Edmontonions.