Downtown

[David A]

Maybe it's because I'm used to Downtown Edmonton and its mediocre retail offerings, but I never really got how much retail sales are connected to office workers. Restaurants, cafes, food courts, etc? Absolutely get it. But if you're working 9-5 and the mall is only open till 6, you're not exactly spending much time browsing. I get the lack of office workers can be a detriment to a Shoppers relying on people popping in for 15 minutes to grab something, but stores like Holt Renfrew, Nordstrom, and even smaller retailers relied on people spending a hours at a mall (or high street) shopping.

Go to Ste-Catherine or Eaton Centre or Queen West on a Saturday afternoon and it's often pretty busy (or was pre-covid). Even the article itself mentions "retail struggles" but then references restaurants and coffeeshops. If you look in Edmonton, the major retail hubs (Whyte, SEC, WEM, Kingsway, Windermere, Skyview, Manning) are all busiest on Saturdays, despite many of them being in proximity to major employment. The only retail in Edmonton that bucks this trend is Downtown, because City Centre is basically 90% food court traffic these days) and HUB Mall (for obvious reasons).

I agree, good points. I think there is a fundamental flaw in thinking here you are getting at, if we are limiting ourselves to coffee shops, restaurants and a few drug stores downtown. I went to Ste Catherines Street last fall which is in proximity to their CBD and it was quite busy on Saturday and Sunday. Yes, they have coffee shops, restaurants and drug stores too, but way beyond that there are a wide range of other stores that actually seem to attract people downtown. What a concept.

 

[Munanyo]

While in Vancouver last week, I was on Robson St. had a great mix of restaurants, coffee shops, retailers (clothing + miscellaneous) etc. it was honestly eclectic and packed. There is nothing that remotely compares here except save for Whyte ave.

 

[Greenspace]

CONFETTI FRIDAYS IN MICHAEL PHAIR PARK

Community-driven summer event series to energize downtown’s lunch hour.

June 7, 2023 (Edmonton Alberta) – Confetti Fridays, a new summer event series, is coming to the downtown core. The series kicks off on June 9th at Michael Phair Park and will feature live music and entertainment every Friday over the lunch hour. The series is presented by Michael Phair, the Downtown Edmonton Community League, the Urban Development Institute – Edmonton Metro, and the Edmonton Downtown Business Association. The events are free and open to everyone.

“It’s Friday, it’s the summer, people are in a good mood; It’s a perfect opportunity for those living and working downtown to come together as a community in a fun, positive way. There are also many wonderful restaurants and shops near the park for people to check out” says Michael Phair, “we’re excited to be part of the energy that makes downtown great.”

The series kicks off on June 9th, and the first two events will celebrate Pride month. This Friday’s launch event is sponsored by Berlin Communications, and will feature drag performances by Circules, Mars Down, Shay Nanigans, with hosts Venus and Gemma Nye. There are numerous establishments on 104th, where people can grab lunch to go, have a seat in the park and enjoy the show. Berlin will be providing sweet treats and refreshments.

You can find more information at confettifridaysyeg.ca

Time: 12:00 – 1:00p.m.
Date: June 9, 2023
Location: Michael Phair Park, 10124 104 St NW, Edmonton, AB T5J 1A7

 

[Munanyo]

I mentioned earlier that I was visiting Vancouver last week and just wanted to share some general thoughts (and expand on my earlier post).

I'll be honest, I was a bit sad coming back after my trip. Reason is because visiting and spending a significant amount of time downtown Vancouver and surrounding area gave me a reality check on just how far behind Edmonton's urban experience is. I've been to Vancouver countless times over the years, but this is the first time I've spent a lot of time there post-COVID.

Downtown was thriving - the amount of people packing into the countless number of restaurants, cafes etc. or just out shopping just gave off a sense of vibrancy. City workers constantly out and about doing general maintenance, cleaning etc. was really nice to see. And just seeing a healthy blend of office workers, tourists wandering around enjoying the cityscape was refreshing. There was a ton of activities to do and even just walking around was fun and enjoyable. Even though their homeless situation is dire, at least it's confined to one general area. 90% of the core was generally hassle free and I was a bit surprised to see not as many homeless people scattered around like here. I know Vancouver has a huge residential population living in their core but man does it ever provide some life and support businesses across a variety of spectrums. There were very few derelict buildings, general infrastructure is well maintained and the sheer size of downtown makes it fun to go out for urban exploring. Overall it was just really dynamic being there and you could truly feel it.

This post isn't meant to bash Edmonton. The Quality of life Edmonton provides beats Vancouver two fold. And I realize this is comparing apples to oranges - both cities are opposite in geography, lifestyle, culture etc. but it does highlight the fact that I wish more people beyond Skyrise cities gave a rat's ass about creating our own eclectic, unique and downright fun downtown/urban experience. You don't see city council in Vancouver having to debate on how to "revitalize" downtown because it's so ingrained in the culture of the city that city life will always be a priority for those living there, moving there or visiting. I'm just venting here because I'm tired of having to visit other places to achieve a genuinely fun and cool urban experience. I know Vancouver (and every city for that matter) has some truly sad and downright serious issues that need to be addressed and I don't want to get into that, I just wished we would raise the bar here is all.

 

[dunno]

I mentioned earlier that I was visiting Vancouver last week and just wanted to share some general thoughts (and expand on my earlier post).

I'll be honest, I was a bit sad coming back after my trip. Reason is because visiting and spending a significant amount of time downtown Vancouver and surrounding area gave me a reality check on just how far behind Edmonton's urban experience is. I've been to Vancouver countless times over the years, but this is the first time I've spent a lot of time there post-COVID.

Downtown was thriving - the amount of people packing into the countless number of restaurants, cafes etc. or just out shopping just gave off a sense of vibrancy. City workers constantly out and about doing general maintenance, cleaning etc. was really nice to see. And just seeing a healthy blend of office workers, tourists wandering around enjoying the cityscape was refreshing. There was a ton of activities to do and even just walking around was fun and enjoyable. Even though their homeless situation is dire, at least it's confined to one general area. 90% of the core was generally hassle free and I was a bit surprised to see not as many homeless people scattered around like here. I know Vancouver has a huge residential population living in their core but man does it ever provide some life and support businesses across a variety of spectrums. There were very few derelict buildings, general infrastructure is well maintained and the sheer size of downtown makes it fun to go out for urban exploring. Overall it was just really dynamic being there and you could truly feel it.

This post isn't meant to bash Edmonton. The Quality of life Edmonton provides beats Vancouver two fold. And I realize this is comparing apples to oranges - both cities are opposite in geography, lifestyle, culture etc. but it does highlight the fact that I wish more people beyond Skyrise cities gave a rat's ass about creating our own eclectic, unique and downright fun downtown/urban experience. You don't see city council in Vancouver having to debate on how to "revitalize" downtown because it's so ingrained in the culture of the city that city life will always be a priority for those living there, moving there or visiting. I'm just venting here because I'm tired of having to visit other places to achieve a genuinely fun and cool urban experience. I know Vancouver (and every city for that matter) has some truly sad and downright serious issues that need to be addressed and I don't want to get into that, I just wished we would raise the bar here is all.

Vancouver is obviously different from Edmonton for a lot of reasons, like you mention. But while I'd never expect Edmonton to follow in its footsteps, you'd think being that the city is an extremely popular destinations for Edmontonians to visit, some of its ideas would rub off on the local populace. But Edmonton is a very utilitarian place and its culture is that of making a quick buck and investing that in your own place or to travel to better places.

This is quite a difference from Calgary, which has a similar economic situation, but uses the influx of money in ways that are better for producing a more attractive city. And I think because the two share so much in history, size, etc, it shows that Edmonton doesn't have to be so mediocre in terms of urban experience. I like Edmonton and it's widely underrated, but I'm also aware of its faults and the reality is that it simply isn't as attractive as Calgary, Vancouver, or even Winnipeg for urbanists. There's definitely shifts towards making things better, including vastly expanding LRT and bike lanes, garden suites, and refocusing growth on mature neighbourhoods, but the results haven't panned out that great. Downtown is in a worse shape than 5 years ago, we still only really have Whyte Ave for attractive main streets, and this is a city where a faux-Dutch strip mall in a walkable neighbourhood is considered a new landmark. The forward momentum of 104th Street, 124th Street, and Alberta Ave have plateaued and failed to reach the potential of Inglewood, Bridgeland, or Kensington in Calgary. Our biggest improvements are in West Oliver thanks to the Oliver Exchange and Paul Kane, which is really quite minor even though its nice, and Ritchie along 76th Ave, which is really just a couple of gentrified strip malls. Meanwhile our extant fabric gets torn a new one and left gap-toothed by developers who flake out on Edmonton (see: BMO site, various West Jasper sites, that church on 109th, etc).

For as much as Edmonton has changed for the better in the last 10-15 years, and produced a more urban-minded populace, it still feels incredibly suburban in a way its peers don't. Calgary grew up (and was already a bit more grown up before), while Ottawa and Winnipeg always had stronger bones due to being much older. Winnipeg's the only other major city that can feel this suburban, but has a strong antidote in high-quality, extensive pre-war urbanism that Edmonton lacks. Otherwise the suburban-feeling cities are a lot smaller... Moncton, Kitchener-Waterloo, Regina, Abbotsford, etc.

 

[TAS]

Vancouver is obviously different from Edmonton for a lot of reasons, like you mention. But while I'd never expect Edmonton to follow in its footsteps, you'd think being that the city is an extremely popular destinations for Edmontonians to visit, some of its ideas would rub off on the local populace. But Edmonton is a very utilitarian place and its culture is that of making a quick buck and investing that in your own place or to travel to better places.

This is quite a difference from Calgary, which has a similar economic situation, but uses the influx of money in ways that are better for producing a more attractive city. And I think because the two share so much in history, size, etc, it shows that Edmonton doesn't have to be so mediocre in terms of urban experience. I like Edmonton and it's widely underrated, but I'm also aware of its faults and the reality is that it simply isn't as attractive as Calgary, Vancouver, or even Winnipeg for urbanists. There's definitely shifts towards making things better, including vastly expanding LRT and bike lanes, garden suites, and refocusing growth on mature neighbourhoods, but the results haven't panned out that great. Downtown is in a worse shape than 5 years ago, we still only really have Whyte Ave for attractive main streets, and this is a city where a faux-Dutch strip mall in a walkable neighbourhood is considered a new landmark. The forward momentum of 104th Street, 124th Street, and Alberta Ave have plateaued and failed to reach the potential of Inglewood, Bridgeland, or Kensington in Calgary. Our biggest improvements are in West Oliver thanks to the Oliver Exchange and Paul Kane, which is really quite minor even though its nice, and Ritchie along 76th Ave, which is really just a couple of gentrified strip malls. Meanwhile our extant fabric gets torn a new one and left gap-toothed by developers who flake out on Edmonton (see: BMO site, various West Jasper sites, that church on 109th, etc).

For as much as Edmonton has changed for the better in the last 10-15 years, and produced a more urban-minded populace, it still feels incredibly suburban in a way its peers don't. Calgary grew up (and was already a bit more grown up before), while Ottawa and Winnipeg always had stronger bones due to being much older. Winnipeg's the only other major city that can feel this suburban, but has a strong antidote in high-quality, extensive pre-war urbanism that Edmonton lacks. Otherwise the suburban-feeling cities are a lot smaller... Moncton, Kitchener-Waterloo, Regina, Abbotsford, etc.

I really don't know if this is perception, but does Edmonton just have a lot less money to do these things in terms of its urban city building - not just government money but private investment? It seems like there is so much money in Vancouver, and even to a lesser degree in Calgary (but certainly more than here) which aids in the development of so many of their projects and the quality that results.

Or in terms of per capita, do we actually have the same amount of money but just spend it on other priorities? We already know, per capita, Edmonton spends more on policing than any other Canadian city and I think we're at the top in terms of roads/maintenance, too. As a result, do we just have less to spend on other things?

 

[Greenspace]

^There is a LOT of money here. I know people worth $30m live in $500k houses in Leduc, but own million dollar homes in Palm Springs or Penticton. They are not flashy here. These people have family and economic ties to the Edmonton region but it is a utilitarian kind of place with vast geography and no development boundaries. I can have a great urban experience in Edmonton but it just requires more knowledge and dedication.

The thing people are now complaining about the most for Downtown Edmonton is the lack of retail. That won't be easily solved just the way Edmonton has developed and expanded retail in the suburbs, and post-covid changes in shopping behaviour. For most retailers, Brewery District IS Downtown. While ICE and Brewerey are about 500k sq. ft. of new retail, millions and millions of square feet of retail was and is being built in power centres at the far reaches of our city.

 

[TAS]

I am looking forward to hearing who those six or so businesses are who will be setting-up shop somewhere in the downtown - and to that point, where that will be. And can this build some momentum?

 

[IanO]

More of this please and thank you.

https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=255003

 

[Munanyo]

Vancouver is obviously different from Edmonton for a lot of reasons, like you mention. But while I'd never expect Edmonton to follow in its footsteps, you'd think being that the city is an extremely popular destinations for Edmontonians to visit, some of its ideas would rub off on the local populace. But Edmonton is a very utilitarian place and its culture is that of making a quick buck and investing that in your own place or to travel to better places.

This is quite a difference from Calgary, which has a similar economic situation, but uses the influx of money in ways that are better for producing a more attractive city. And I think because the two share so much in history, size, etc, it shows that Edmonton doesn't have to be so mediocre in terms of urban experience. I like Edmonton and it's widely underrated, but I'm also aware of its faults and the reality is that it simply isn't as attractive as Calgary, Vancouver, or even Winnipeg for urbanists. There's definitely shifts towards making things better, including vastly expanding LRT and bike lanes, garden suites, and refocusing growth on mature neighbourhoods, but the results haven't panned out that great. Downtown is in a worse shape than 5 years ago, we still only really have Whyte Ave for attractive main streets, and this is a city where a faux-Dutch strip mall in a walkable neighbourhood is considered a new landmark. The forward momentum of 104th Street, 124th Street, and Alberta Ave have plateaued and failed to reach the potential of Inglewood, Bridgeland, or Kensington in Calgary. Our biggest improvements are in West Oliver thanks to the Oliver Exchange and Paul Kane, which is really quite minor even though its nice, and Ritchie along 76th Ave, which is really just a couple of gentrified strip malls. Meanwhile our extant fabric gets torn a new one and left gap-toothed by developers who flake out on Edmonton (see: BMO site, various West Jasper sites, that church on 109th, etc).

For as much as Edmonton has changed for the better in the last 10-15 years, and produced a more urban-minded populace, it still feels incredibly suburban in a way its peers don't. Calgary grew up (and was already a bit more grown up before), while Ottawa and Winnipeg always had stronger bones due to being much older. Winnipeg's the only other major city that can feel this suburban, but has a strong antidote in high-quality, extensive pre-war urbanism that Edmonton lacks. Otherwise the suburban-feeling cities are a lot smaller... Moncton, Kitchener-Waterloo, Regina, Abbotsford, etc.

This right here hits the nail on the head.

As was mentioned, Edmonton is a quietly wealthy city (Ottawa is the only other such example) and the people here prefer to spend that wealth on travel or nice homes. It's no secret Edmonton traditionally has been, and still is to an extent, a transient city whereby people come to make a quick buck and have an escape plan (usually in the 3-5 year range). Therefore a lot of the young folks moving here don't vest or care much about the general well being of the city itself. I think that will change with time, as people come here to settle permanently to build families and escape the high cost of living cities of Vancouver and Toronto.

One other trend I think that contributes to Edmonton's perception and underwhelming overall urban experience, is the culture. The people that are moving here are either young folks trying to make a quick buck like I said, or young families wanting to buy a new build home in a quiet suburb. In say, Vancouver, young professionals or artists move there for the "scene" and purposely go there for the urbanity of the city and the city life in general. These people like to go out, want to dine at cool and trendy places and be able to shop steps away from their door. That culture is non-existent here. It will only happen if companies set up shop downtown, residents start to flock there and the city improves the overall pedestrian experience through a variety of measures. That can take decades and often times people don't want to wait that long to experience that, hence why many who graduate from the U of A often times leave to start their professional lives in Vancouver, Toronto or Calgary when they don't have major commitments tying them down just yet.

 

[Glenco]

Well that was depressing

 

[dunno]

This right here hits the nail on the head.

As was mentioned, Edmonton is a quietly wealthy city (Ottawa is the only other such example) and the people here prefer to spend that wealth on travel or nice homes. It's no secret Edmonton traditionally has been, and still is to an extent, a transient city whereby people come to make a quick buck and have an escape plan (usually in the 3-5 year range). Therefore a lot of the young folks moving here don't vest or care much about the general well being of the city itself. I think that will change with time, as people come here to settle permanently to build families and escape the high cost of living cities of Vancouver and Toronto.

One other trend I think that contributes to Edmonton's perception and underwhelming overall urban experience, is the culture. The people that are moving here are either young folks trying to make a quick buck like I said, or young families wanting to buy a new build home in a quiet suburb. In say, Vancouver, young professionals or artists move there for the "scene" and purposely go there for the urbanity of the city and the city life in general. These people like to go out, want to dine at cool and trendy places and be able to shop steps away from their door. That culture is non-existent here. It will only happen if companies set up shop downtown, residents start to flock there and the city improves the overall pedestrian experience through a variety of measures. That can take decades and often times people don't want to wait that long to experience that, hence why many who graduate from the U of A often times leave to start their professional lives in Vancouver, Toronto or Calgary when they don't have major commitments tying them down just yet.

@Greenspace highlighted another important aspect that I didn't mention too -- many times, the wealthy in Edmonton don't even bother with an opulent castle, they save that for their pied-a-terres in more "attractive" locations. They buy something decent that does the job and little else. This reiterates my point of Edmontonians using their wealth in other places. The only time it's usually invested in the region is in private households, and often not even with the exteriors. The opulence is either very insulated or spent elsewhere.

It's strange, too, because Calgary isn't like this despite it also being a place to make a quick buck. I think they've done a better job at marketing themselves as an attractive city that could be a long-term home. It still has the desirability for families but people are willing to invest in the city and make it more desirable in other ways too because it's billed itself to those same people as a place worthy of investment. Put another way: Vancouverites view Calgary with scorn, but can understand why someone might want to live there. They do not understand a move to Edmonton, because it seems like such a step down. If you enjoy quality urbanism, you'd be better off in even smaller Hamilton or Winnipeg.

And you know what, there is some truth to it. Many of us have been boosters and I know this city gets way too much flack from outsiders, but if Edmonton were attractive to anyone not trying to live the McMansion life (whether they get there or not), it would eventually show up in people's perceptions, even if not in the mainstream perception. But Edmonton isn't really a hidden gem. Whyte Ave is nice, the river valley's gorgeous, and there's some other areas with character, but really what makes Edmonton stand out to an urban-minded person? Halifax has the human-scale, Quebec City has the walled city, Hamilton has the brick Victorians, Winnipeg has the Exchange, and Victoria has the Inner Harbour. All of these smaller cities with more to offer an urbanist than this extremely suburban city. We're a small core of North York urbanism surrounded by a vast swath of Brampton and Newmarket. Our main streets are ugly and devoid of street life because there's a dearth of amenities, we have 1950s suburbia within a few blocks of Downtown (Queen Mary Park-Prince Rupert), and architectural standards that leave a lot to be desired. Edmonton's sharpest urbanist contribution was starting the LRT trend in North America, but here we are 45 years later and we have 1 functional line (Capital), a tiny spur that's slow and poorly designed (Metro), and a yet-to-be-opened-but-completely-built line marred with issues (Valley). Meanwhile Calgary and Vancouver's newer systems have run laps around us.

 

[TAS]

@Greenspace highlighted another important aspect that I didn't mention too -- many times, the wealthy in Edmonton don't even bother with an opulent castle, they save that for their pied-a-terres in more "attractive" locations. They buy something decent that does the job and little else. This reiterates my point of Edmontonians using their wealth in other places. The only time it's usually invested in the region is in private households, and often not even with the exteriors. The opulence is either very insulated or spent elsewhere.

It's strange, too, because Calgary isn't like this despite it also being a place to make a quick buck. I think they've done a better job at marketing themselves as an attractive city that could be a long-term home. It still has the desirability for families but people are willing to invest in the city and make it more desirable in other ways too because it's billed itself to those same people as a place worthy of investment. Put another way: Vancouverites view Calgary with scorn, but can understand why someone might want to live there. They do not understand a move to Edmonton, because it seems like such a step down. If you enjoy quality urbanism, you'd be better off in even smaller Hamilton or Winnipeg.

And you know what, there is some truth to it. Many of us have been boosters and I know this city gets way too much flack from outsiders, but if Edmonton were attractive to anyone not trying to live the McMansion life (whether they get there or not), it would eventually show up in people's perceptions, even if not in the mainstream perception. But Edmonton isn't really a hidden gem. Whyte Ave is nice, the river valley's gorgeous, and there's some other areas with character, but really what makes Edmonton stand out to an urban-minded person? Halifax has the human-scale, Quebec City has the walled city, Hamilton has the brick Victorians, Winnipeg has the Exchange, and Victoria has the Inner Harbour. All of these smaller cities with more to offer an urbanist than this extremely suburban city. We're a small core of North York urbanism surrounded by a vast swath of Brampton and Newmarket. Our main streets are ugly and devoid of street life because there's a dearth of amenities, we have 1950s suburbia within a few blocks of Downtown (Queen Mary Park-Prince Rupert), and architectural standards that leave a lot to be desired. Edmonton's sharpest urbanist contribution was starting the LRT trend in North America, but here we are 45 years later and we have 1 functional line (Capital), a tiny spur that's slow and poorly designed (Metro), and a yet-to-be-opened-but-completely-built line marred with issues (Valley). Meanwhile Calgary and Vancouver's newer systems have run laps around us.

And what is it that keeps you here?

 

[Romanov]

I'm just venting here because I'm tired of having to visit other places to achieve a genuinely fun and cool urban experience.

Fun urban experiences can be had here - as Greenspace noted they require curating. If you are tired of going to other places, continue to support our urban areas that have the most potential - Whyte, West Oliver, 124 Street, 104/103 Street, RHW.

 

[Romanov]

Edmonton is suburban for various reasons from historical city planning decisions, to employment centres, to opportunistic developers. Edmonton is very much a "show me" market. And as far as urban areas we do not have much to "show". People go with a suburban mindset because its all they know for Edmonton and they do not think an urban experience is feasible in Edmonton and better left to other cities. Currently, we do not have many strong mainstreets - with Whyte being the closest to a shining example of an eclectic, vibrant urban area. However, whyte requires a road diet and increased housing density to make the experience more urban. If we can perfect whyte, I think there will be a wider acceptance and demand for urban spaces that would translate into faster development in West Oliver, 124 Street, 103/104, etc. Perhaps a "scene" can begin to develop and more investment dollars can stay in Edmonton.

Please provide input into the plan for whyte ave - paths for people has a very good post that can be found here. https://pathsforpeople.org/2023/05/big-changes-on-whyte-ave-make-for-a-better-main-street/