Downtown

[Romanov]

I'll also add that I think 102 Ave from 110 to 124 is the most vibrant non-mainstreet. Businesses and housing should flourish here as well. Partly because Jasper is so lacking but should improve after the rehab is complete ... whenever that is

 

[Gronk!]

I want to see the Oliverbahn extended from 97 St to about 142 St.

 

[dunno]

And what is it that keeps you here?

Mixture of personal connections and the real urban options (i.e. not Hamilton) in Canada are expensive or have a language barrier. There isn't exactly an affordable, dense big city like Philadelphia or Chicago... even Montreal is getting expensive. FWIW, I don't think it's constructive to imply that people who are critical shouldn't be here. There's many great things in Edmonton, and there's a lot of potential, but the urban experience is seriously lacking, and we can't just keep thinking strip malls in Ritchie and old breweries turned into power centres are gonna cut it.

Fun urban experiences can be had here - as Greenspace noted they require curating. If you are tired of going to other places, continue to support our urban areas that have the most potential - Whyte, West Oliver, 124 Street, 104/103 Street, RHW.

I've been supporting these areas for many, many years. At some point you get tired of the inertia. In the past decade, Calgary's equivalent to these areas (aside from Whyte, which has long been vibrant) have shot past 124th, 104th, 118th, etc despite similar population, history, and economic realities.

 

[dunno]

Edmonton is suburban for various reasons from historical city planning decisions, to employment centres, to opportunistic developers. Edmonton is very much a "show me" market. And as far as urban areas we do not have much to "show". People go with a suburban mindset because its all they know for Edmonton and they do not think an urban experience is feasible in Edmonton and better left to other cities. Currently, we do not have many strong mainstreets - with Whyte being the closest to a shining example of an eclectic, vibrant urban area. However, whyte requires a road diet and increased housing density to make the experience more urban. If we can perfect whyte, I think there will be a wider acceptance and demand for urban spaces that would translate into faster development in West Oliver, 124 Street, 103/104, etc. Perhaps a "scene" can begin to develop and more investment dollars can stay in Edmonton.

Please provide input into the plan for whyte ave - paths for people has a very good post that can be found here. https://pathsforpeople.org/2023/05/big-changes-on-whyte-ave-make-for-a-better-main-street/

Whyte Ave can absolutely use more density, but it does already have many people in the area, and has been quite successful for decades at this point. It can and does show that Edmonton's able to be interesting, from an urban perspective. As much as 17th in Calgary has flashier new projects, I still think Whyte has more character for roughly similar levels of vibrancy. It's the lack of any other alternative, especially because Strathcona's allure skews heavily towards one specific age bracket.

 

[TAS]

FWIW, I don't think it's constructive to imply that people who are critical shouldn't be here.

I don't think anybody has said or even implied that, have they? Certainly not me.
You have clearly and thoughtfully outlined areas where Edmonton is lacking so I thought an obvious and balanced question would be what is it that you like that keeps you here.

 

[dunno]

I don't think anybody has said or even implied that, have they? Certainly not me.
You have clearly and thoughtfully outlined areas where Edmonton is lacking so I thought an obvious and balanced question would be what is it that you like that keeps you here.

Fair enough, my mistake!

 

[kcantor]

Whyte Ave can absolutely use more density, but it does already have many people in the area, and has been quite successful for decades at this point. It can and does show that Edmonton's able to be interesting, from an urban perspective. As much as 17th in Calgary has flashier new projects, I still think Whyte has more character for roughly similar levels of vibrancy. It's the lack of any other alternative, especially because Strathcona's allure skews heavily towards one specific age bracket.

it could well and easily be said that whyte avenue has succeeded independent of city initiatives rather than an indication of successful city initiatives... first and foremost, it was - and remains - the closest affordable area - both residential and commercial albeit less so commercially in recent years - to the university of alberta and the positive influence of young, urbane post-secondary students (40,000 of them in total and 28,000 of them undergraduates). even the fringe was the result of brian paisley's initiative and drive (albeit there was initial and subsequent funding from the city, it was never a city initiative per se and the same could be said for the farmer's market and the walterdale theatre etc.).

 

[David A]

This right here hits the nail on the head.

As was mentioned, Edmonton is a quietly wealthy city (Ottawa is the only other such example) and the people here prefer to spend that wealth on travel or nice homes. It's no secret Edmonton traditionally has been, and still is to an extent, a transient city whereby people come to make a quick buck and have an escape plan (usually in the 3-5 year range). Therefore a lot of the young folks moving here don't vest or care much about the general well being of the city itself. I think that will change with time, as people come here to settle permanently to build families and escape the high cost of living cities of Vancouver and Toronto.

One other trend I think that contributes to Edmonton's perception and underwhelming overall urban experience, is the culture. The people that are moving here are either young folks trying to make a quick buck like I said, or young families wanting to buy a new build home in a quiet suburb. In say, Vancouver, young professionals or artists move there for the "scene" and purposely go there for the urbanity of the city and the city life in general. These people like to go out, want to dine at cool and trendy places and be able to shop steps away from their door. That culture is non-existent here. It will only happen if companies set up shop downtown, residents start to flock there and the city improves the overall pedestrian experience through a variety of measures. That can take decades and often times people don't want to wait that long to experience that, hence why many who graduate from the U of A often times leave to start their professional lives in Vancouver, Toronto or Calgary when they don't have major commitments tying them down just yet.

I have long felt some of our so called business leaders and more wealthy people deserve a real kick in the pants here. In most other places, people who make a lot money in a place tend to put quite a bit of that back into the community to improve it, not generally treat it as a transient place and scurry off to some place else. I'm not sure how to change the mentality here, but if I have offended someone with this comment, it is probably a start because perhaps it is causing them to actually think about this. We desperately need community leaders for the business community, which we don't seem to have much of right now

On a more positive note, to your other point, there is an exodus of younger people from larger cities that are unaffordable now and there is a lot of potential for the future. Those that come here, I don't think they will stand for or put up as much with the old good enough complacent attitudes.

 

[TAS]

Well we have this bright spot although I wouldn't be surprised if someone says, yeah but...

"After one year, ~85% of new immigrants had stayed in Edmonton; and, after ten years ~82% are still in Edmonton — this is the highest rate among major Canadian cities." Feb 27, 2023

2022 immigration trends in the Edmonton Region | Alberta, Canada

Attracting and retaining international talent: the Edmonton Region is already among the most attractive places for immigration in Canada.

edmontonglobal.ca

 

[dunno]

I have long felt some of our so called business leaders and more wealthy people deserve a real kick in the pants here. In most other places, people who make a lot money in a place tend to put quite a bit of that back into the community to improve it, not generally treat it as a transient place and scurry off to some place else. I'm not sure how to change the mentality here, but if I have offended someone with this comment, it is probably a start because perhaps it is causing them to actually think about this. We desperately need community leaders for the business community, which we don't seem to have much of right now

On a more positive note, to your other point, there is an exodus of younger people from larger cities that are unaffordable now and there is a lot of potential for the future. Those that come here, I don't think they will stand for or put up as much with the old good enough complacent attitudes.

It's kind of like Edmonton is a small get-rich-quick resource town like Fort McMurray. Lots of money being made and none of it invested in the place where that buck was made.

 

[bingo]

u guys are such doomers. WE ARE A WORK IN PROGRESS! I see things to be happy about all the time. Seeing people unironically imply that places like Hamilton and Winnipeg are better experiences than Edmonton is just so silly. There are places in Edmonton that have a level of loveliness and pleasantness that rival so many other great places, we just need to aspire to take that loveliness and pleasantness everywhere!

everyone watch this clip, this is exactly how i feel about this place.

 

[David A]

It's kind of like Edmonton is a small get-rich-quick resource town like Fort McMurray. Lots of money being made and none of it invested in the place where that buck was made.

Maybe, but I find the comparison to Fort McMurray somewhat puzzling. We are certainly not a new, one industry, boom bust community.

Edmonton is one of the oldest communities in Alberta with a fairly stable well diversified economy.

The only similarity is it is somewhat a branch plant economy though with few of the major corporate employers headquartered here, which I think is part of the problem.

 

[dunno]

Maybe, but I find the comparison to Fort McMurray somewhat puzzling. We are certainly not a new, one industry, boom bust community.

Edmonton is one of the oldest communities in Alberta with a fairly stable well diversified economy.

The only similarity is it is somewhat a branch plant economy though with few of the major corporate employers headquartered here, which I think is part of the problem.

I'm being sardonic and hyperbolic.

u guys are such doomers. WE ARE A WORK IN PROGRESS! I see things to be happy about all the time. Seeing people unironically imply that places like Hamilton and Winnipeg are better experiences than Edmonton is just so silly. There are places in Edmonton that have a level of loveliness and pleasantness that rival so many other great places, we just need to aspire to take that loveliness and pleasantness everywhere!

everyone watch this clip, this is exactly how i feel about this place.

Did it ever occur to you that I'm critical because I care about Edmonton and want it to succeed? You reference a clip from "Last Black Man in San Francisco" to criticize me without realizing I'm doing exactly what the clip is saying.

In terms of urbanism, Hamilton and Winnipeg are better urban experiences. That doesn't mean they're better overall necessarily (and really, such a definitive ranking is bound to be subjective). Edmonton is more pleasant to live in IMO compared to either city and has more going on in general, but in terms of urbanism, it is sorely lacking. I wish it was different and I've been supporting the progress of Edmonton towards being a place with good urbanism for some time, but it's a very, very slow march.

Winnipeg has the most extensive pre-war urbanism in Western Canada (Vancouver's closely behind) and has one of the most intact and grandiose early 20th century commercial-industrial districts in Canada: the Exchange, which alone blows all of Edmonton's urban fabric away. 104th Street is about as good as it gets for a comparable vibe, but it doesn't have the old commercial skyscrapers, just warehouses. We only have the McLeod Buildding for that. There's also residential neighbourhoods like Wolseley, which is very human-scaled, quirky, and quaint, with front lawns full of ice rinks and sculptures in the winter and trampolines and slacklines in the summer. The closest we've got to this is the Highlands, but it's not the same. Old wealth areas like Crescentwood and Armstrong Point make Glenora look like Riverbend. Their main French quarter (Old St Boniface) is far more attractive than the Bonnie Doon area too. The West End is like McCauley-Norwood on steroids. There's actually a VIA Rail station downtown and it doesn't look like a Cold War bunker! Winnipeg has a more accessible riverfront with more amenities (not just talking about the Forks). The art and music scene is very well developed for a city of its size, too. You're not going to go to a rave in an old warehouse in Edmonton, but you can definitely live that Berlin fantasy in Winnipeg.

Hamilton has a lot of the attributes of Winnipeg too (they're quite similar cities), but trade the wide Prairie and Tyndall stone for the Escarpment and red brick. It doesn't have as great of a waterfront and the Escarpment, while arguably as beautiful as the river valley, lacks the accessibility of it, let alone Winnipeg's riverfront. But, to contrast these faults, the city is actually building LRT, something not even on the radar in Winnipeg and its Downtown area is undergoing a stronger renaissance thanks to Toronto money.

Neither city are perfect and you can nitpick certain things about them where Edmonton excels (public transit and the existence of Old Strathcona are the main ones that come to mind), but pound for pound, they offer a richer, more interesting urban experience, in terms of vibe, aesthetics, and build quality.

 

[TAS]

Did it ever occur to you that I'm critical because I care about Edmonton and want it to succeed?

Based on your critiques you must want it to succeed a lot! That's great!

And don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with highlighting a city's shortcomings, deficiencies and weaknesses. I look forward to reading more on this thread in an effort to make this city better.

 

[David A]

Lets remember we are focusing on downtown here, not necessarily the city as a whole.

I don't think pretending our downtown is wonderful is going to help improve things. Unfortunately it needs a lot of improvement now, it would be delusional at best to believe otherwise.

Winnipeg and Hamilton are such totally different places. I actually have been to and like both, they have different pluses and minuses and are not easily comparable to here.

Hamilton, when I went, didn't seem to have a very big downtown, but what it has seemed good. Winnipeg has a lot of nice older buildings, but perhaps not the dynamic future growth potential we can really take advantage of if we do things right and are smart about it. I think by virtue of its location, Hamilton will probably do well in the future.