Airboy
Senior Member
Was watching today. Still ripping up rail ties in front of 9888, also what looked like a rail. ok 2 rails just east of the intersection.
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Jasper Avenue New Vision / Imagine Jasper Avenue
- Thread starter Daveography
- Start date
Freedm
Active Member
1. Not sure how nice the street would look with constant grid lock.
2. You can't just keep taking out car lanes and think everything will be hunky dory.
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@Freedm
1. The best, most economically productive and self-sustaining streets are congested:
(a. Queen West, Toronto; b. Mont-Royal Avenue, Montreal; c. Commercial Drive, Vancouver)
2. You can as long as other transportation options are provided in their stead, especially those that have more capacity to move people.
1. The best, most economically productive and self-sustaining streets are congested:
(a. Queen West, Toronto; b. Mont-Royal Avenue, Montreal; c. Commercial Drive, Vancouver)
2. You can as long as other transportation options are provided in their stead, especially those that have more capacity to move people.
ChazYEG
Senior Member
I agree with every single word of what @Daveography said.
On that matter, a congested street usually makes it less aggressive for pedestrians, so it goes with my goal.
Also, the whole idea is to reduce car-dependancy, particularly in downtown areas, create an environment that encourages density, walkability, smaller commutes, increased transit ridership...
In essence, make the city for people, not for cars.
Wanna use your car to get to downtown? Awesome, suck up to the traffic or use alternative (and longer) routes.
Or give in and use transit, provided that it can actually help you reach your destination with ease, it's not such a bad idea.
kcantor
Senior Member
they other thing those best, most economically productive and self-sustaining streets have along with that congestion?
there are cars, lots and lots of cars.
not necessarily moving quickly but there nonetheless.
if you want to kill a street, nothing will do it faster than removing all automobile traffic and removing all of the on-street parking and there are examples of that almost everywhere that tried from high streets in small towns in Scotland to Granville Street in Vancouver to 96th Street in the Quarters...
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ChazYEG
Senior Member
Actually, I can list up quite a few examples of successful pedestrian oriented streets, it's possible given the right incentives and some conditions need to be there first, as @Daveography said, My comment actually addressed one of the points that he raised: putting a low-floor LRT or a Bus Corridor, making access easy by public transportation. The density is there, or at least close, given that as far as I remember, Oliver is the densest residential neighborhood in Alberta. Nonetheless, no one is advocating for a ban on cars, just pointing out that Jasper Ave doesn't need to be, necessarily, a major car corridor and the whole downtown area would benefit a lot from it being more active, pedestrian and business friendly.they other thing those best, most economically productive and self-sustaining streets have along with that congestion?
there are cars, lots and lots of cars.
not necessarily moving quickly but there nonetheless.
if you want to kill a street, nothing will do it faster than removing all automobile traffic and removing all of the on-street parking and there are examples of that almost everywhere that tried from high streets in small towns in Scotland to Granville Street in Vancouver to 96th Street in the Quarters...
Today, this section between 109 an 124th is a wasteland, people drive by it, but for all the street parking and its many car lanes, most business are almost always underachieving (and those which aren't, usually have their own parking). No one likes walking this section, let alone sit there for a coffee or a happy hour with friends. The current project is, probably, the best we're gonna get, at least for now (and probably another 30 years) and it's a HUGE improvement on what we currently have and no one is complaining about it. Most of us are just poiting out that it could be better and all of our discussions are merely suggestions for several different ways to do that.
What I honestly don't appreciate is the dismissive and somewhat sarcastic tone of your replies and the completely unconstructive way you're participating. Wanna advocate for cars, do so with arguments that go beyond the superficial, we all are gonna love to debate over that, until then, I frankly refuse to reply to any replies you make on my posts.
kcantor
Senior Member
i am happy to apologize for my tone/style. it wasn’t meant to be dismissive or sarcastic but a brief albeit pertinent humorous comment. when I talk about cars, lots of cars, i’m happily talking about congestion not free flowing. congestion only happens when people want to be there and we want streets like this to be destinations, not just thoroughfares. the solution isn’t to eliminate the cars, nor is it to engineer the streets and traffic lights to maximize speeds and minimize times. traffic engineers will always engineer for most efficient movement. it’s up to planners and citizens to tell them to engineer something else when it’s the something else that is more desirable.
Unfortunately, I think the city missed out on part of your proposal. One can argue Jasper is already a bus corridor, but the route of west LRT turning up to turn onto 104 Ave will make it harder to make the argument of reducing Jasper Ave. I appreciate why the route was chosen as it likely serves a greater proportion of population between 109 and 124 south and north of 104 Ave. It is tough because I see Jasper Ave as a largely residential street with ancillary commercial in the future.
I think our climate plays a large part in the resistance to reducing car dependence. I don't have the golden solution for that. That said, it is hard to convince people to wait for a bus in anything beyond -15 for longer than they should be. LRT helps solve that to an extent, but our city systems need better integration. Our snow removal strategy does not support the bus network in the winter - you see routes slow to a crawl and back up whenever there is snow fall or significant ice. That is the problem with any public structure though - the sophistication and bureaucracy does not easily allow departments to work together in a truly collaborative manner. The winter problem that we have allows affluent individuals to easily jump back to their automobiles. Ultimately, I don't think the city is looking at these issues from a systemic point of view.
ChazYEG
Senior Member
Apologies accepted. Don't have any intention of holding grudges
the problem with writing is that conveying witty humour and not sounding douchey is super hard.My point with Jasper Ave, today, is exactly that: it's a thoroughfare, people don't wanna go, let alone stay, there, hence all of the debate over what could be done to make it a destination, rather than just a corridor, especially considering that it's our main street.
As a resident of the area, it bothers me that it's not pleasant to take a walk to a restaurant, or even run errands. It kinda prompts me to do everything by car, to go further than it would be necessary to enjoy going to a restaurant, etc. I can't imagine what it must feel like for someone that doesn't live there, it's probably just a rather forgettable stretch of road, nothing more than passage between the downtown core and other places.
ChazYEG
Senior Member
I agree with every single word you said... I do acknowledge that out winter makes it harder to move people towards a transit oriented city, rather than a car oriented one.
There are examples of cities with winters just as harsh as ours (or harsher, if you consider that they get more snowfall, due to their coastal location, although the temperatures might me slightly higher than here), though, like Oslo, Copenhagen or Stockholm, that have amazing public transportation and a high level of ridership but, as you said, the city would need to look into this with a systemic view, rather than isolated situations.
As for the presence of the line on 104th ave, I agree that it probably took an LRT over this stretch of Jasper from the equation, at least for a while. I do believe that the density that will allow it to be considered again will be there, sooner rather than later, but I do understand that it's just no justifiable now.
My vision for this possible LRT line would be for it to begin at Jasper and 109 street, along Jasper, 124 St, 118 Ave, 127 street all the way up until 153 avenue, intercepting the Valley Line West and the future Metro Line expansion and being a bit of a "bypass" line, but I don't have data or knowledge enough to be sure that it would, indeed, work well and be justifiable.
To be honest, from an exclusively integration point of view, I'd have this line overlap with the Metro and Capital lines, going along Jasper all the way to 82 avenue, as it would run on the surface, not underground.
Freedm
Active Member
I just happen to be spending a week in Toronto and streets like Bloor and Dupont and Dundas are very lively and full of pedestrians, bicycles and cars, but what makes them so exciting is the density of shops and residential. The only place Edmonton really comes close is Whyte Ave, and maybe in another 30 years also 124th Street, but I don't see Jasper being like that ever to be honest. It really is more of a thoroughfare, like University Ave for example in Toronto, so maybe we shouldn't try to turn it into something it isn't. Thoroughfares are also useful.Apologies accepted. Don't have any intention of holding grudges
My point with Jasper Ave, today, is exactly that: it's a thoroughfare, people don't wanna go, let alone stay, there, hence all of the debate over what could be done to make it a destination, rather than just a corridor, especially considering that it's our main street.
As a resident of the area, it bothers me that it's not pleasant to take a walk to a restaurant, or even run errands. It kinda prompts me to do everything by car, to go further than it would be necessary to enjoy going to a restaurant, etc. I can't imagine what it must feel like for someone that doesn't live there, it's probably just a rather forgettable stretch of road, nothing more than passage between the downtown core and other places.
Airboy
Senior Member
Always thought 124th could be more like Bloor West Village
chrisvazquez7
Active Member
ChazYEG
Senior Member
Hey, I just wanted to revisit this topic, (not so) briefly. I've been working weird hours recently and because of that I've decided to drive though Jasper Ave for my commute, just to get a feeling of how the construction is going, overall. But I noticed one thing that wasn't intentional: currently Jasper only has 1 lane on each way + turning lanes, between 114 and 109 streets and surprisingly enough, regardless of the hour, it's never grid locked. It might be fairly congested, at times, but nothing that would make me change my usual route, unless I'm in a hurry, and that inclusdes rush hour, on both directions.
Now, thinking of that and considering that they didn't redirect the buses from the avenue during construction (which means they very often stop the whole traffic, when they're picking up/dropping passengers), I can't help but imagine that, even if we had just two car lanes + turning lane, with completely segregated bus lanes and slightly larger sidewalks, it would flow even better than it does now (as we wouldn't have the constant bus stopping), it would probably improve bus services and make a very positive impact on the avenue, overall (I'm not even mentioning an extremely unlikely, if not impossible, LRT line instead of a BRT corridor).
Driving the whole stretch from 121 street to 109 street every day, at least twice a day, made me certain that Jasper Ave doesn't need 3 lanes in each direction and that it could very well be more of a destination, rather than just a thoroughfare.