IanO
Superstar
Analogies are fun!
'Second: I have to agree with Ted, you seem to have an underlying car fetish that you're just not brave enough to admit here. EVERY SINGLE TIME someone suggests a significant change to one of our main "corridors" you're the first to pick up your pitchfork and march to the Mike Nickel drums. Wanna pedestrianize Jasper? No... but the cars... Whyte Ave? No... but the cars... 104 Ave? No... but the cars...124 street? No... But the cars... Wanna put bike lanes on 109 St? No... But the cars... And your solution is always the same: pick a secondary, parallel street, and do it there, even though it's going to be pointless, because if people wanted to be there, THEY WOULD BE THE MAJOR STREETS. '
I am a car guy through and through. I've run car clubs, organized meets, based my life around track days and regularly travel for Formula 1... but that fetish does not for one second mean that I am a 'traffic or freeway guy'. Mutually exclusive my friend.
'Wanna pedestrianize ___x___?' - The reality is that we need efficient flow of movement regardless of modal choice. Do they need to move at 80km/h, nope. Do they need to have priority, nope, but they do need space and fairness as well. Jasper was designed to be a mixed corridor and needs to have significant capacity to have our Downtown function. Four lanes is appropriate for much of it and while I supported the 100-102st diet to introduce off-peak parking ie. down to one lane east bound, at times this is very, very congested and perhaps not ideal for anyone. Let me reiterate that I walk to places 90% of the time and have focussed many of my efforts to support groups like Paths for People, Open Streets, road diets strategies, PARKING Day and temporary closures for events like Al Fresco or around Churchill to expand usable areas at the cost of lanes of travel. That said, Jasper looks much better now, found a better balance and while not Grafton Street, it certainly makes me want to walk it more often now on the new stretches. What we need is density to pair with these changes to drive foot traffic to the area and help facilitate a shift towards more walkable amenities, shops, services... but they need to change too and perhaps that's more important here. When you have a REXALL with half of its frontage 'lifestyle' posters, that does NOTHING for the look and feel for the pedestrian, but serves the driver well due to scale. When Canterra forces you to walk away from its Jasper entrances to the parking lot interior entrance it does NOTHING to help develop Jasper's attractiveness as a more walkable Avenue. Say we did take a lane or two out, improved the urban character of it with benches and landscaping, made it look beautiful... do you think that many more people would shop there or hangout in the middle of a canyon? It's inherently too wide from a built-form perspective to be that attractive, even Whyte is. We don't have the climate or the density to necessitate 30' sidewalks and patios there. Now RHW or 104st...
'
a) What's attractive to businesses, in general, but particularly for small retail and hospitality, which are the bread and butter of any healthy downtown? Foot traffic, nice, safe and comfortable streets, good access (for all modes of transportation, not just cars) visibility from the street, etc... Guess what is PROVEN to work for that, all around the world: pleasant, interesting streets, with trees, wide sidewalks, proper space for patios, street art, pocket parks, bike lanes and the pairing bike racks, reliable and comfortable transit options, slower moving vehicles... Oh, it also helps if you bring in what people want to buy, unless it's a completely crazy idea, eh?! Maybe there's another reason why some cities have big box stores in their downtowns (and some even on main streets... Think Nordstrom Rack on Yonge and Bloor)...
This has worked in cities everywhere: New York, Boston, New Orleans, San Francisco, Vancouver, Halifax, Toronto (are those not cities with similar cultural backgrounds, as is most of North America?), most cities in the Netherlands (even small ones, mind you), Oslo, Helsinki, Copenhagen, Paris, Munich, Frankfurt, Cape Town, Manila, Buenos Aires, São Paulo, Rio de Janeiro, Santiago, Mexico City, London, Manchester... It's not anecdotal, Ian, if it works on so many different places, it should work here, so please answer me: WHY is Edmonton so peculiar and should not follow on the footsteps of places that were successful (even if it is on it's own way, using inventive solutions)? Should we become a case study for what a city completely different from all others in the world? Maybe Edmonton exists in a parallel reality... I frankly don't know'
So something similar to 104st, RHW, 124st, 103st in parts... where traffic flow/need is less important and so we gravitate there and often head there via Jasper which leads to us stopping on Jasper for coffee, drinks, food and services.... but we sit on the patios on side streets due to their more human scale and nature and purpose. I don't want to sit on Yonge Street or Rene Levesque or West Georgia, but those are busy, bustling, multi-use corridors. I do want to sit on Queen West, Hamilton, Rue St. Denis and Stephen Avenue. Let's focus on making 104st amazing from 100ave-104, let's find a way forward for 108st, let's finish RHW to make it our most amazing block^2 pedestrian area. The width of our E/W corridors are challenging to do much with, but N/S are ready, able and willing. If we cannot get 104st right given it's natural form, why pull our hair out on Jasper? It's our BEST chance, best shot and is halfway there.
'
b) because 102 Avenue is NOT our main street, Jasper is. Imagine if the folks in NYC decided to think this way about 5th ave? Or Toronto with Yonge Street?
What is your idea? Have Jasper become a high flux route? Why not rip the whole downtown apart and build freeways everywhere, instead. Maybe, in the process, we can beg for a main street that actually looks and serves as one be constructed, even if it's a tiny little one...'
102 will offer something very different, is MUCH more compact and could be much more urban in looks/feel/offerings and here's hoping it might become that if ECC does its thing along with Manulife. It's not intended to replace Jasper as a Main Street but rather provide another experience.
'Second: I have to agree with Ted, you seem to have an underlying car fetish that you're just not brave enough to admit here. EVERY SINGLE TIME someone suggests a significant change to one of our main "corridors" you're the first to pick up your pitchfork and march to the Mike Nickel drums. Wanna pedestrianize Jasper? No... but the cars... Whyte Ave? No... but the cars... 104 Ave? No... but the cars...124 street? No... But the cars... Wanna put bike lanes on 109 St? No... But the cars... And your solution is always the same: pick a secondary, parallel street, and do it there, even though it's going to be pointless, because if people wanted to be there, THEY WOULD BE THE MAJOR STREETS. '
I am a car guy through and through. I've run car clubs, organized meets, based my life around track days and regularly travel for Formula 1... but that fetish does not for one second mean that I am a 'traffic or freeway guy'. Mutually exclusive my friend.
'Wanna pedestrianize ___x___?' - The reality is that we need efficient flow of movement regardless of modal choice. Do they need to move at 80km/h, nope. Do they need to have priority, nope, but they do need space and fairness as well. Jasper was designed to be a mixed corridor and needs to have significant capacity to have our Downtown function. Four lanes is appropriate for much of it and while I supported the 100-102st diet to introduce off-peak parking ie. down to one lane east bound, at times this is very, very congested and perhaps not ideal for anyone. Let me reiterate that I walk to places 90% of the time and have focussed many of my efforts to support groups like Paths for People, Open Streets, road diets strategies, PARKING Day and temporary closures for events like Al Fresco or around Churchill to expand usable areas at the cost of lanes of travel. That said, Jasper looks much better now, found a better balance and while not Grafton Street, it certainly makes me want to walk it more often now on the new stretches. What we need is density to pair with these changes to drive foot traffic to the area and help facilitate a shift towards more walkable amenities, shops, services... but they need to change too and perhaps that's more important here. When you have a REXALL with half of its frontage 'lifestyle' posters, that does NOTHING for the look and feel for the pedestrian, but serves the driver well due to scale. When Canterra forces you to walk away from its Jasper entrances to the parking lot interior entrance it does NOTHING to help develop Jasper's attractiveness as a more walkable Avenue. Say we did take a lane or two out, improved the urban character of it with benches and landscaping, made it look beautiful... do you think that many more people would shop there or hangout in the middle of a canyon? It's inherently too wide from a built-form perspective to be that attractive, even Whyte is. We don't have the climate or the density to necessitate 30' sidewalks and patios there. Now RHW or 104st...
'
a) What's attractive to businesses, in general, but particularly for small retail and hospitality, which are the bread and butter of any healthy downtown? Foot traffic, nice, safe and comfortable streets, good access (for all modes of transportation, not just cars) visibility from the street, etc... Guess what is PROVEN to work for that, all around the world: pleasant, interesting streets, with trees, wide sidewalks, proper space for patios, street art, pocket parks, bike lanes and the pairing bike racks, reliable and comfortable transit options, slower moving vehicles... Oh, it also helps if you bring in what people want to buy, unless it's a completely crazy idea, eh?! Maybe there's another reason why some cities have big box stores in their downtowns (and some even on main streets... Think Nordstrom Rack on Yonge and Bloor)...
This has worked in cities everywhere: New York, Boston, New Orleans, San Francisco, Vancouver, Halifax, Toronto (are those not cities with similar cultural backgrounds, as is most of North America?), most cities in the Netherlands (even small ones, mind you), Oslo, Helsinki, Copenhagen, Paris, Munich, Frankfurt, Cape Town, Manila, Buenos Aires, São Paulo, Rio de Janeiro, Santiago, Mexico City, London, Manchester... It's not anecdotal, Ian, if it works on so many different places, it should work here, so please answer me: WHY is Edmonton so peculiar and should not follow on the footsteps of places that were successful (even if it is on it's own way, using inventive solutions)? Should we become a case study for what a city completely different from all others in the world? Maybe Edmonton exists in a parallel reality... I frankly don't know'
So something similar to 104st, RHW, 124st, 103st in parts... where traffic flow/need is less important and so we gravitate there and often head there via Jasper which leads to us stopping on Jasper for coffee, drinks, food and services.... but we sit on the patios on side streets due to their more human scale and nature and purpose. I don't want to sit on Yonge Street or Rene Levesque or West Georgia, but those are busy, bustling, multi-use corridors. I do want to sit on Queen West, Hamilton, Rue St. Denis and Stephen Avenue. Let's focus on making 104st amazing from 100ave-104, let's find a way forward for 108st, let's finish RHW to make it our most amazing block^2 pedestrian area. The width of our E/W corridors are challenging to do much with, but N/S are ready, able and willing. If we cannot get 104st right given it's natural form, why pull our hair out on Jasper? It's our BEST chance, best shot and is halfway there.
'
b) because 102 Avenue is NOT our main street, Jasper is. Imagine if the folks in NYC decided to think this way about 5th ave? Or Toronto with Yonge Street?
What is your idea? Have Jasper become a high flux route? Why not rip the whole downtown apart and build freeways everywhere, instead. Maybe, in the process, we can beg for a main street that actually looks and serves as one be constructed, even if it's a tiny little one...'
102 will offer something very different, is MUCH more compact and could be much more urban in looks/feel/offerings and here's hoping it might become that if ECC does its thing along with Manulife. It's not intended to replace Jasper as a Main Street but rather provide another experience.
