J22 | 46.02m | 13s | Pangman | DIALOG

I'm only 2 blocks away. This could potentially get a majority of my business. I like the Shoppers on 118 st for it's essentials, but it would be great to have a dedicated grocery store that I can walk to and not cross 104 ave to get to
Man, when Covid is done, we should hand out, haha. I'm a block away, right cross the street from Jasper House.
And yes, for me too this will definitely be my go-to store for basically everything. With the added bonus of not having to take the car out of the garage for groceries more than my monthly visit to Costco.
 
I mean... is "no issues" the bar? Just got back from a week in Vancouver and it left me both inspired and discouraged by how far behind we are. Their main streets, seawall...even average streets are better than 95% of ours. I'm not just after function. I want our sidewalks to have a sense of place on jasper. For people to want to be there, not just to use them to get from A to B.

Jasper is, in many ways, our most important street. Does it feel that way?

Not totally sure why Vancouver is relevant to this discussion? Yeah, it's fantastic there...there is a long list of major cities in the world that have a better urban experience than Edmonton.

The issue is that if you want to improve it...regardless of where the bar is set in other cities...you need to be practical about the fact that the City has a limited amount of resources to invest in improving the shortcomings you have described. I think it's a bit childish to imply that if we don't do it all, we are setting the bar to some embarrassingly low standard.

It's my opinion...not a fact, just my opinion...that the best way to move the needle is to concentrate on the most impactful projects. This doesn't feel like one of them at this point in the arc.
 
We're only reaching Vancouvers population of 1.5 million which they reached in the late 80s. That is 31 years ago..., and, 31 years ago, Vancouver was not what it is today. You have to be patiently and let our girl grow on her own terms. Forcing or manipulating her to be someone else, that will eventually do harm to her mentally wellness.
 
Not totally sure why Vancouver is relevant to this discussion? Yeah, it's fantastic there...there is a long list of major cities in the world that have a better urban experience than Edmonton.

The issue is that if you want to improve it...regardless of where the bar is set in other cities...you need to be practical about the fact that the City has a limited amount of resources to invest in improving the shortcomings you have described. I think it's a bit childish to imply that if we don't do it all, we are setting the bar to some embarrassingly low standard.

It's my opinion...not a fact, just my opinion...that the best way to move the needle is to concentrate on the most impactful projects. This doesn't feel like one of them at this point in the arc.
I was just relating to the fact that I was there for work last week, so it was on my mind. Its also an very well planned city, so I think it makes sense to look to them for inspiration and ideas. Not everything they do we can practical do. But its a great source for ideas!

Something they do well is creating ample space for biking and walking and they have a lot more vegetation. You really feel a lot safer in a much busier downtown when those things are done well. I think if we want jasper to succeed, meaning residential projects, retail, restaurants...then we need people to love the area. I think it is a priority and will make a big impact and is worth it to do well. I also think its a shame construction is so slow in our city.
 
We're only reaching Vancouvers population of 1.5 million which they reached in the late 80s. That is 31 years ago..., and, 31 years ago, Vancouver was not what it is today. You have to be patiently and let our girl grow on her own terms. Forcing or manipulating her to be someone else, that will eventually do harm to her mentally wellness.
Exactly. Vancouver reached our current population circa 1988/89 in a post-Expo boom and yet, if you look at the aerial pictures, you'll notice that the city's downtown wasn't all that much denser than Edmonton is now up until the mid to late 1990s.
Looking at street level pictures from the time (1980 to 2000), you can see how much the "vancouverism" flourished, de facto, after 1995, almost 10 years after the Expo kickstarted the process.
We should, indeed, look at the good examples that Vancouver has set for the next 20 something years, but we should also learn from their mistakes. We still have the opportunity to foster inclusive development, maintaining affordability and curbing widespread gentrification, like downtown Vancouver couldn't do, for example. Areas such as Boyle Street and Queen Mary Park, for example, are ripe for affordable development.
Now, bringing things full circle, improving comfort and attractiveness of the streets, especially for pedestrians and cyclists, like the current Imagine Jasper project supposedly does (albeit poorly executed and underwhelming in all accounts, as it doesn't address some very important issues and is just a bunch of benches and planters on a slightly wider sidewalk), is important to increase walkability and make the streets more attractive to businesses.
I would love to see Jasper go through the same transformation Yonge St. will suffer, with bike lanes, space for patios, proper street parking and effectively wider sidewalks that would allow for cultural activities to take place on the street. Considering that Jasper is wider than Yonge, we could even throw in dedicated bus lanes and still have a much safer, pleasant street for everyone that still serves as a main transit corridor and people mover (just not cars).
This would make especially this somewhat dead stretch of the avenue we're talking here (116 to 124 st) much livelier, with people that go for their walks and jogs on Victoria Promenade taking advantage of a shared used path or larger sidewalks, for example, which would bring more people to the businesses doors, etc...
 
One further additional aspect with Vancouver is this, dont compared ourselves to Vancouver in any shapes or forms for it is a chosen world-city to the wealthy. Sky residence would have been sold out in Vancouver whereas our environment dictates differently. BE OURSELVES BUT BE MOST CREATIVELY AS WE CAN BE WITHIN OUR OWN MEANS.- you know which developers you are with your lazy works...
 
It is as pointless to compare Edmonton to Vancouver as it is to compare Los Angeles to San Francisco. Vancouver and San Francisco are constrained by Geography and have therefore been forced to grow upwards; Edmonton and Los Angeles have historically been unconstrained and therefore have expanded willy-nilly. Edmonton has a boundary area of 264.1 square miles; Vancouver, by comparison, is only 44.4 square miles. Likewise, L.A. girds 503 square miles; San Francisco is a meager 46.9 square miles. By dint of their respective geographies, Vancouver and San Francisco have moved skyward in a much more condensed way. One of the reasons Vancouver and San Francisco received such a huge influx of Hong Kong natives is their comparable geographies to that Asian City; hence their Chinatowns are among the most populated of any Cities world-wide (of course there are other sustaining reasons as well). But here is a positive inflection point for Edmonton -- it is much more a blank canvas for creative development than is Vancouver and it has much more climate diversity (the seasons are more pronounced). Edmonton is just now beginning to take advantage of that. If Politics could better align with opportunity, that advantage would accelerate.
 
Not sure I would take such a binary, simplistic view. Of course every city is different due to politics, nation, climate, population, geography, etc. But we can learn from others still. Saying "we shouldn't have highways through the middle of our city cause it hurt places like detroit" is the same as saying "we should do grade separated bike and walking paths cause it helped vancouver." We can learn from others, we don't need to reinvent the wheel.

I'm not advocating we copy vancouver's overall transit, condo, etc strategies. But we can look at their main streets, bike infrastructure, and residential interaction with street fronts to find improvements to make in our city.
 
Not sure I would take such a binary, simplistic view. Of course every city is different due to politics, nation, climate, population, geography, etc. But we can learn from others still. Saying "we shouldn't have highways through the middle of our city cause it hurt places like detroit" is the same as saying "we should do grade separated bike and walking paths cause it helped vancouver." We can learn from others, we don't need to reinvent the wheel.

I'm not advocating we copy vancouver's overall transit, condo, etc strategies. But we can look at their main streets, bike infrastructure, and residential interaction with street fronts to find improvements to make in our city.
The thing with some of these "truths" is that most of them have been tested and the results have been showed in several different places, with different geographies, cultures, climates, much to similar results.

Highways cutting through (or boxing) the core areas, especially older, mature neighborhoods usually yields sterile, non-walkable, non-livable downtowns. Happened in dozens of North American cities, happened in South America (Rio, São Paulo, Caracas...), Asia, Oceania and, even though to a lower degree, Europe. Cities that avoided and/or got rid of them generally see a much more integrated core, that could be redeveloped into residential, commercial, instead of just corporate. Examples are many: Seoul, Melbourne, Tokyo, NYC, São Paulo, Vancouver, Santiago, Buenos Aires, San Francisco, Boston (recently, with the underground highway).

Having more (well designed and implemented) bike lanes and walking paths, generally improves the urban experience and have a positive impact on business and residents at the same time, especially in denser, mixed use neighborhoods. Again, examples are not lacking: Amsterdam, Paris, London, NYC, San Diego, Rio de Janeiro, Mexico City, Shanghai, Kyoto, Jakarta, Taipei (and that is not to repeat myself a lot with the same cities, but São Paulo, Santiago, Tokyo...).

More efficient and available transit has been proven to improve general quality of life, creates incentives to densification and development in different areas and connects areas that would, otherwise, be segregated (hence some NIMBYs resistance to transit, especially rail, coming to their neighborhoods. São Paulo, as big and cosmopolitan as it is, suffered with this for decades in some areas that were crucial to have subways going through and to).

What we need to do is look at all of these experiences and find out how to better apply these concepts to our city, taking advantage of our particular characteristics (the River Valley, the flat land profile, the well defined seasons and even the generally dryer, colder climate), like @archited said. And we can use a catalyst to help us justify some of these changes that we'd like to see made and which wouldn't even be discussed in normal times, be it a global pandemic that shifted a lot of jobs to permanent home offices or the FIFA World Cup that will require the city to improve its branding, attract hotels and bring in tourists to our Downtown and fill our transit with riders and, if we take advantage of that exposure, could help the city attract people, companies, etc...
 
^^^^ You almost said it (but not quite) -- we should never copy other Cities lest we end up with outdated modes of Transportation or other Planning memes by dint of a lack of deeper understanding and research and investigation. I have had more than one Planner at the City of Edmonton tell me that "unless it can be proven that it works somewhere else, you will never get it approved by Edmonton powers-that-be" (Wow, what deep thought and imagination that engenders!) -- naturally I immediately attacked that small-mindedness from the two individual Planning leaders at the City (out of respect I will maintain their anonymity, but I suspect there are many developers who could guess their names).
 
^^^^ You almost said it (but not quite) -- we should never copy other Cities lest we end up with outdated modes of Transportation or other Planning memes by dint of a lack of deeper understanding and research and investigation. I have had more than one Planner at the City of Edmonton tell me that "unless it can be proven that it works somewhere else, you will never get it approved by Edmonton powers-that-be" (Wow, what deep thought and imagination that engenders!) -- naturally I immediately attacked that small-mindedness from the two individual Planning leaders at the City (out of respect I will maintain their anonymity, but I suspect there are many developers who could guess their names).
Their fear of innovation is striking, indeed.
And I agree entirely that plain copying other cities is as dumb as it gets, but seeing their experiences as real life social experiments and learning from them is probably one of the smartest things we can do. As the saying goes: the smart man learns from his mistakes, the wise man learns from other's mistakes as well.
 
The borough of Manhattan, population 1.6 Million-ish has only one Safeway/Sobey/Save-On big box type grocery store with attached parking lot. Smaller stores like D'Agostinos and Gristedes along with local bodega's serve to feed the masses. I think this small grocery will do fine.
 
^^^^ You almost said it (but not quite) -- we should never copy other Cities lest we end up with outdated modes of Transportation or other Planning memes by dint of a lack of deeper understanding and research and investigation. I have had more than one Planner at the City of Edmonton tell me that "unless it can be proven that it works somewhere else, you will never get it approved by Edmonton powers-that-be" (Wow, what deep thought and imagination that engenders!) -- naturally I immediately attacked that small-mindedness from the two individual Planning leaders at the City (out of respect I will maintain their anonymity, but I suspect there are many developers who could guess their names).
I wonder who those two people were (I can hazard a guess)...
 

Back
Top