Edmonton City Centre Mall (Renovations) | ?m | 2s | LaSalle Investment Management

[EdmTrekker]

City Centre Mall has added more security and it looks busy at lunch. I’m sure there will be more stores coming when the Valley Line opens.

I am not so sure. Having returned to Edmonton for 6 weeks in May for a visit and having a place in the core - we walked around the core, Chinatown, Oliver every day several times with our pups. Homeless, drunks and drugged people seemed the majority of people on the streets especially near ECC while litter, garbage and vandalism is everywhere. I can't see people coming by train to shop at ECC unless people feel downtown is safe, attractive and has something to offer. The mall is DEAD. As a long time resident of the core (very long) I am hard pressed to recommend visiting Edmonton downtown to anyone under the present circumstances. City Council has failed to clean up the heart of Edmonton -while spending freely this year on environmental issues per this EJ news piece: https://edmontonjournal.com/news/po...es-edmonton-visit-with-transit-worker-meeting

"The mayor pointed to the most recent Edmonton budget, which included $16 million for an energy transition strategy, $53 million to energy retrofit city facilities and $34.5 million supporting a district energy network strategy and nodes."

Clearly there is money to spend - and it's a question of priorities. Sohi and his friends on Council do not really give a rats ass about downtown Edmonton.

 

[David A]

I suppose one could as just easily blame the provincial government that refuses to add more permanent homeless shelter spaces, even though it has billions more money than the city, rather than the mayor.

Why does Calgary have more permanent homeless shelter spaces than Edmonton, even though the problem is worse here? Can anyone explain that, I have asked this question before and got no answer. The problems in Chinatown are related to this so I this is why I bring this up, but back to the mall.

Yes, there are problems throughout downtown but they differ in severity considerably depending on the specific area, but I would not conflate City Centre Mall which has quite a bit of security and is a controlled indoor space with Chinatown which is quite different. Also not sure if you are still here, or have been downtown since May, but in the areas I go (not Chinatown) regulary things have generally improved since then.

 

[Munanyo]

I honestly just do not see a a way in which ECC continues to be a traditional retail mall. As a city of 1.4 million we have our retail needs more than covered (an area we far exceed our peer cities in, Ottawa and Calgary, regarding store offerings and shopping experience). How can ECC compete with nearby Kingsway (which got a refreshed look and is doing quite well), Southgate (a really respectable and solid mall offering) and WEM (the largest mall on this continent)?

I really believe that ECC needs to let go of the idea of being a retail mall and shift its focus elsewhere. Yes, I know the untold sums of money that would need to get dumped to make this place some other type of venue or destination, but if ECC is to do it's part in helping revitalize the core, it has got to become something else (maybe evaluate if condo towers can be built, try to attract entertainment venues like the Rec Room etc.). I'm just spitballing ideas here.

 

[dunno]

I honestly just do not see a a way in which ECC continues to be a traditional retail mall. As a city of 1.4 million we have our retail needs more than covered (an area we far exceed our peer cities in, Ottawa and Calgary, regarding store offerings and shopping experience). How can ECC compete with nearby Kingsway (which got a refreshed look and is doing quite well), Southgate (a really respectable and solid mall offering) and WEM (the largest mall on this continent)?

I really believe that ECC needs to let go of the idea of being a retail mall and shift its focus elsewhere. Yes, I know the untold sums of money that would need to get dumped to make this place some other type of venue or destination, but if ECC is to do it's part in helping revitalize the core, it has got to become something else (maybe evaluate if condo towers can be built, try to attract entertainment venues like the Rec Room etc.). I'm just spitballing ideas here.

Ottawa I can see, mostly, but Calgary? This isn’t 2005, and nowadays a lot of retailers start in Calgary or eschew Edmonton altogether. Both Ottawa and Calgary also have stronger urban retail than Edmonton. Pretty much anything at South Common can be found in other cities, just in separate shopping centres. The key retailers in WEM are usually found at Chinook too. Obviously it isn‘t an either/or, as some retailers do come to Edmonton first, and some ignore Calgary, even, but the gap is pretty much non-existent now, as for every retailer that goes to Edmonton first, there’s another that goes 300km south first.

I agree that City Centre will continue to struggle as many of the destination retailers will skip it in favour of the much nicer, larger, and more profitable Kingsway slightly north. For the first-in-town or only-in-town options, WEM, Southgate, and South Common fill that void nicely. The only way I can see City Centre thriving as a mall is if the downtown population, of either residents or workers or visitors (but ideally all of the above) explodes. When you have that high of a density, having multiple locations of certain things close by becomes more viable.

Retail does have a place downtown, and will be a key piece of making the neighbourhood more vibrant and desirable and functional, but I think we need to cover the basics first before we chase Uniqlo or Lululemon. Unfortunately all of those basics are found in suburban-style shopping centres on 104th Ave, rather than on Jasper Ave, 102nd Ave, 101 St, RHW, 104th St, 124th St, etc. I like the Rec Room idea, though. And keep the Landmark Cinema, somehow. And the food court, I suppose. But the rest can be turned outward, and imagine the complex being headed by Rec Room and some of the Unity/Brewery staples like Safeway, Best Buy, and London Drugs. Then leave some room for smaller tenants with an emphasis on unique attractions rather than traditional mall retailers.

 

[TAS]

Is there a lot of room left in Kingsway or Southgate for new retailers?
When those spaces are full, does that start to open the door some for downtown?
ECC had a great plan to open up the street- rather than bringing in new tenants now it would be great to just commit to that plan, create something exciting and grow its tenant base from there. Not feasible I guess.

 

[Munanyo]

Ottawa I can see, mostly, but Calgary? This isn’t 2005, and nowadays a lot of retailers start in Calgary or eschew Edmonton altogether. Both Ottawa and Calgary also have stronger urban retail than Edmonton. Pretty much anything at South Common can be found in other cities, just in separate shopping centres. The key retailers in WEM are usually found at Chinook too. Obviously it isn‘t an either/or, as some retailers do come to Edmonton first, and some ignore Calgary, even, but the gap is pretty much non-existent now, as for every retailer that goes to Edmonton first, there’s another that goes 300km south first.

I agree that City Centre will continue to struggle as many of the destination retailers will skip it in favour of the much nicer, larger, and more profitable Kingsway slightly north. For the first-in-town or only-in-town options, WEM, Southgate, and South Common fill that void nicely. The only way I can see City Centre thriving as a mall is if the downtown population, of either residents or workers or visitors (but ideally all of the above) explodes. When you have that high of a density, having multiple locations of certain things close by becomes more viable.

Retail does have a place downtown, and will be a key piece of making the neighbourhood more vibrant and desirable and functional, but I think we need to cover the basics first before we chase Uniqlo or Lululemon. Unfortunately all of those basics are found in suburban-style shopping centres on 104th Ave, rather than on Jasper Ave, 102nd Ave, 101 St, RHW, 104th St, 124th St, etc. I like the Rec Room idea, though. And keep the Landmark Cinema, somehow. And the food court, I suppose. But the rest can be turned outward, and imagine the complex being headed by Rec Room and some of the Unity/Brewery staples like Safeway, Best Buy, and London Drugs. Then leave some room for smaller tenants with an emphasis on unique attractions rather than traditional mall retailers.

No doubt that both Ottawa and Calgary have a superior urban retail offering than Edmonton. I'm just suggesting I believe that overall Edmonton has a better retail experience than either city (and I'm not suggesting that it's much superior, just that Edmonton has an edge over both).

If Edmonton had a strong and healthy downtown population then we wouldn't even be having this discussion. 30 years from now I still don't expect the downtown population to reach a level that would support a healthy retail scene. Hence why I believe it's time for ECC's purpose and goal is to shift away from being just another retail mall. I really think opening up the street to retailers (primarily restaurants) would be a huge first step to getting the ball rolling as one example.

I agree though, we can't be chasing Lululemon and Uniqlo if we cannot get the basics done right. Safety, cleanliness, attracting companies/corporations to set up shop etc. is what the city can and should be doing. Things could work out organically if those fundamentals are done right.

 

[David A]

Is there a lot of room left in Kingsway or Southgate for new retailers?
When those spaces are full, does that start to open the door some for downtown?
ECC had a great plan to open up the street- rather than bringing in new tenants now it would be great to just commit to that plan, create something exciting and grow its tenant base from there. Not feasible I guess.

Yes, that is a good point. The city will likely continue to grow and both Kingsway and Southgate are fairly busy, I would guess close to capacity. The parking is free, but it can be hard to find a spot there at times.

However, Kingsway, Southgate and other malls have been around for decades. The only big real change in the last few years was COVID, before that City Centre was hanging in there. So, I believe eventually it can come back to be viable. I know there is no shortage of people that can not see a future different than the present, but that thinking often turns out not to be correct.

I believe opening it up to the street is a great idea and I hope that will happen some time in the future. It will likely not happen right away, but if it does a year or two in the future that would be a very good sign.

 

[Gronk!]

In order to open up ECC to the street, may I offer these suggestions:

1. The former HBC space needs to broken up into smaller spaces with exterior entrances along the south and west sides. This could be restaurants, cafes, pubs and a food hall.
2. Shoppers Drug Mart in ECC west needs to be closed and broken out into smaller spaces, while keeping the ECC east Shoppers open. I've never understood why this mall has 2 Shoppers locations - I just hear nothing but crickets from the usual downtown boosters. The SE corner of ECC west can have an exterior entrance but the new 102 St LRT station may prevent other exterior entrances.
3. TD Bank should be fine once they finally finish their renovations.
4. The former Atmosphere/Sport Chek can be converted into a Planet Fitness or a Fit4Less with exterior entrances only (see Kingsway and Bonnie Doon malls).

 

[dunno]

Is there a lot of room left in Kingsway or Southgate for new retailers?
When those spaces are full, does that start to open the door some for downtown?
ECC had a great plan to open up the street- rather than bringing in new tenants now it would be great to just commit to that plan, create something exciting and grow its tenant base from there. Not feasible I guess.

Probably not… there’s only so many popular mall retailers at a time and they can all fit nicely into Kingsway’s existing footprint. There’s less flashy retailers at Kingsway that could be pushed out in theory if someplace like Apple wanted in. Not super likely, but more likely than any of the other destination stores not at Kingsway finding their way to City Centre Mall.

 

[David A]

At this point I suspect it is really not about getting flashy retailers, it is about getting decent solid ones to gradually fill up some of the excess vacant space.

 

[cmd uw]

I've said this before, many seem to blame WEM for 'sucking retail out of the downtown', but I would say that Kingsway is by far the main culprit given its proximity to the the downtown. If Kingsway didn't exist you can bet that our downtown retail would be stronger then it is. This is why I believe that ECC needs to 'de-mall' and offer space that is ancillary to office/hotel uses such as food/beverage, dry cleaners, tailors, flower shops, etc. and add residential density.

 

[Munanyo]

I do wonder if ECC has taken a serious look at selling off or developing the section where the Bay used to be. Would be a great spot for a residential tower and shaving off some serious deadweight.

 

[cmd uw]

I do wonder if ECC has taken a serious look at selling off or developing the section where the Bay used to be. Would be a great spot for a residential tower and shaving off some serious deadweight.

They have and continue to figure out approaches to redeveloping/repositioning both east and west ECC. The west is more complicated as the Delta Hotel is a separate owner and they would have to be considered with any proposals.

 

[David A]

I've said this before, many seem to blame WEM for 'sucking retail out of the downtown', but I would say that Kingsway is by far the main culprit given its proximity to the the downtown. If Kingsway didn't exist you can bet that our downtown retail would be stronger then it is. This is why I believe that ECC needs to 'de-mall' and offer space that is ancillary to office/hotel uses such as food/beverage, dry cleaners, tailors, flower shops, etc. and add residential density.

No doubt the proximity has some impact, but Kingway opened in the mid 1970's and City Centre was fairly full until at least the mid 2010's.

 

[IanO]

MSA Architecture, Inc - Eatons Centre, Canada

www.mauricesunderland.com

Eaton Centre, Edmonton, Canada
1.5 Million Sq Ft
4 level mall / atrium court hotel / entertainment / cinemas / mini golf / 2 office towers / future residential complex