Gronk!
Senior Member
Never bothered wasting bandwidth by clicking on that link. We all know that Lorne Gunter should quit dragging his knuckles over a keyboard and just retire already, and sell his ass to the local glue factory.
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Downtown
- Thread starter Daveography
- Start date
Dubas
Active Member
Time has passed Gunter by by about 2023 years
IanO
Senior Member
Headed to Downtown Calgary this past Saturday for some shopping and to walk the area around The Core and Stephen Avenue to get a better sense of the look, feel, offerings etc. I was curious to see and feel the differences between walking around Downtown Edmonton of late.
The mall was reasonably busy, clean and had far more clothing/shoe/personal item offerings than I recall; only two or three empty stores. We went to Simons, Club Monaco, Banana, The Bay, Simons, Birks, Browns, Patagonia, Aritzia, John Fluevog, among others.
The pedway system was open, but fairly quiet and most notably had a number of dark, empty, drywalled spaces in tower podiums.
Stephen Avenue was a mixed bag of busy stores, 2/3 filled restaurants, packed coffee houses and I'd wager 25-30% empty spots.
However, there were hundreds, if not thousands of people walking around, shopping, eating, exploring and socializing. I cannot tell you how much safer, inviting and interesting it felt. The most stark difference being primarily a lack of those visibly high/unstable and no visible gang member activity.
Parking for 2hrs was $0.27, yup, $0.27 at a meter one block from the mall.
Sidewalks and streets were quite dirty, as expected this time of the year, with multiple garbage/refuse areas in poor shape, but nothing over flowing with garbage and very little garbage on the streets overall.
We both came away with similar comments that Calgary felt a lot more 'big city', safer due to how many people were walking around and that Downtown Edmonton feels forgotten about comparatively speaking.
It was a bit disheartening to think about how far behind Downtown Edmonton is on so many fronts relative to its big brother to the south.
The mall was reasonably busy, clean and had far more clothing/shoe/personal item offerings than I recall; only two or three empty stores. We went to Simons, Club Monaco, Banana, The Bay, Simons, Birks, Browns, Patagonia, Aritzia, John Fluevog, among others.
The pedway system was open, but fairly quiet and most notably had a number of dark, empty, drywalled spaces in tower podiums.
Stephen Avenue was a mixed bag of busy stores, 2/3 filled restaurants, packed coffee houses and I'd wager 25-30% empty spots.
However, there were hundreds, if not thousands of people walking around, shopping, eating, exploring and socializing. I cannot tell you how much safer, inviting and interesting it felt. The most stark difference being primarily a lack of those visibly high/unstable and no visible gang member activity.
Parking for 2hrs was $0.27, yup, $0.27 at a meter one block from the mall.
Sidewalks and streets were quite dirty, as expected this time of the year, with multiple garbage/refuse areas in poor shape, but nothing over flowing with garbage and very little garbage on the streets overall.
We both came away with similar comments that Calgary felt a lot more 'big city', safer due to how many people were walking around and that Downtown Edmonton feels forgotten about comparatively speaking.
It was a bit disheartening to think about how far behind Downtown Edmonton is on so many fronts relative to its big brother to the south.
archited
Senior Member
Sounds like you should move there.
IanO
Senior Member
It's far more of an attractive option comparatively speaking and I'm hearing that from others who visit as well. It's important to recognize that Downtown Calgary is 4x Edmonton in terms of build-space and employees, but sadly, it highlighted how far Edmonton has fallen with regards to goods, services and overall experience.
I'm of the opinion that sharing these kinds of experiences, stories, perspectives is needed to kick Edmonton in the butt and light a few more fires with those who can make changes to what is currently there; it's embarrassing.
If you want to be blind to this, that's up to you.
I'm of the opinion that sharing these kinds of experiences, stories, perspectives is needed to kick Edmonton in the butt and light a few more fires with those who can make changes to what is currently there; it's embarrassing.
If you want to be blind to this, that's up to you.
archited
Senior Member
Nothing new here... we've listened to you beat that drum for years now. You have pretty much set-in-stone your attitudes on Edmonton. What is odd is why you are driven to keep it up. Pretty much everyone by now knows you hate the City and you like to keep picking at it like an irritant scab.
IanO
Senior Member
But that's where you are wrong.
I have a special place in my heart for Edmonton and always will; I want to see Downtown Edmonton recover, rise and excel. I'm still invested in Downtown Edmonton, visit it regularly and have many good friends/colleagues working to make positive change there.
BUT, stepping away often gives you a bit of perspective and ability to form comparisons from other experiences and those are important to share. I've said it before and will continue with my 'tough love' until I see positive change.
I've always found Edmonton to be rather insular and unwilling to acknowledge its issues, with your comments being precisely those I've heard for years, instead of getting to work.
I have a special place in my heart for Edmonton and always will; I want to see Downtown Edmonton recover, rise and excel. I'm still invested in Downtown Edmonton, visit it regularly and have many good friends/colleagues working to make positive change there.
BUT, stepping away often gives you a bit of perspective and ability to form comparisons from other experiences and those are important to share. I've said it before and will continue with my 'tough love' until I see positive change.
I've always found Edmonton to be rather insular and unwilling to acknowledge its issues, with your comments being precisely those I've heard for years, instead of getting to work.
archited
Senior Member
Well, maybe so! Perhaps we'll get to discuss it one day face-to-face. I see Edmonton as a place of opportunity with a potential that far exceeds Cities like Calgary -- Calgary being a City that has made itself in the image of Dallas or Houston -- shiny and soulless, corporate and tightly wound. I see Edmonton as a City that can grow to be more like Austin or San Antonio (to stay with the Texas analogy) -- interesting and diverse, youthful and open to change. I guess I am looking more at what can be than what has become.
TAS
Senior Member
And we have a provincial government that says Calgary is a bit behind Edmonton - as an excuse to spend more there.
Garneau2Go
Active Member
I mean, using Calgary as a benchmark is apt. We have the roughly the same population, climate, laws, and culture. It's hard not to see how stark the difference is between the two CBDs.
Unfortunately Calgary became the financial centre for the oil industry and attracts more global capital and government investment. I think ultimately Calgary has more money floating around and this keeps core investment high.
Edmonton is effectively the major city for an area the size of western Europe (territoires), and an industrial and educational centre, it shouldn't be this unequal. Edmontonians are stuck building Edmonton by themselves with limited cash and frankly I have no idea how to break that cycle.
Unfortunately Calgary became the financial centre for the oil industry and attracts more global capital and government investment. I think ultimately Calgary has more money floating around and this keeps core investment high.
Edmonton is effectively the major city for an area the size of western Europe (territoires), and an industrial and educational centre, it shouldn't be this unequal. Edmontonians are stuck building Edmonton by themselves with limited cash and frankly I have no idea how to break that cycle.
kcantor
Senior Member
to be fair to IanO, he probably experiences edmonton and downtown edmonton “face-to-face” a lot more often and a lot more recently than you do…
that’s not to take away from edmonton’s and downtown edmonton’s potential, just noting that we have squandered much of our previous growth and are starting from much farther back to simply regain what’s been lost.
one step forward and two steps back is not austin’s or san antonio’s model (to stay with the texas analogy).
David A
Senior Member
I agree. Sadly this has been the mindset of the city for most of the last 30 to 40 years with a few brief exceptions.
It might not be easy to compete against other places, but if you never really try, well you get nothing.
David A
Senior Member
Mostly its because the city ceded or was convinced to cede this area to Calgary decades ago and other than the occasional token efforts or platitudes hasn't done much.
Our business community and leaders have been fairly complacent too, not a lot of vision or encouragement from them in this area. Sometimes they blame the city, but really they both failed.
Greenspace
Senior Member
I don't know if there's a time in the last 100 years Downtown Edmonton has had such a lack of retailing, particularly on department stores and clothing. The difference between the two cities is noticeable for all the points people have made above..
I've also seen a noticeable concern and effort from business community to improve things Downtown, advocate on their own for what is necessary and spend millions of their own money on improvements, so I'd hardly say they've been complacent. It's just politically we've made it so hard to do what is necessary for Downtown Edmonton. 15 minute cities for example are great for Edmonton, but ultimately are they good for our Downtown? We keep doing whatever we can to not prioritize Downtown, whether consciously or subconsciously. Disorder is allowed to occur in the spaces Downtown because a smaller percentage of the population than Calgary actually goes there on a daily basis. We can't seem to figure out transit safety and thus the average Edmontonian doesn't see it as an options while yet we're spending billions on it to get Downtown. It's a very tough situation to figure out. But to say people (businesses) don't care or not trying is simply untrue. Doesn't everyone want to have a thriving Downtown they can be proud of?
I've also seen a noticeable concern and effort from business community to improve things Downtown, advocate on their own for what is necessary and spend millions of their own money on improvements, so I'd hardly say they've been complacent. It's just politically we've made it so hard to do what is necessary for Downtown Edmonton. 15 minute cities for example are great for Edmonton, but ultimately are they good for our Downtown? We keep doing whatever we can to not prioritize Downtown, whether consciously or subconsciously. Disorder is allowed to occur in the spaces Downtown because a smaller percentage of the population than Calgary actually goes there on a daily basis. We can't seem to figure out transit safety and thus the average Edmontonian doesn't see it as an options while yet we're spending billions on it to get Downtown. It's a very tough situation to figure out. But to say people (businesses) don't care or not trying is simply untrue. Doesn't everyone want to have a thriving Downtown they can be proud of?
David A
Senior Member
I really have to laugh about his line about having no pleasure in being a downer. Almost every article I have ever read by him over the years was a downer.Gunter Gisdoms
GUNTER: Downtown Edmonton needs more than optimism to turn around
For lots of Edmontonians, Downtown has for decades not been central to their experience of our city. If anything, that has only intensified.edmontonsun.com
Well, to give him credit, he is consistent and I also feel this one is overly negative. The one thing I agree somewhat agree with him on is that there is no destination stores downtown (well right now, actually not a lot of stores of any time). This has become so bad I believe it will be a deterrent in attracting people to live downtown. Who wants to live in a supposedly walkable area, if you still have to drive to Unity Square or Kingsway to get almost anything?
Lets not kid ourselves, it is not so much the scary homeless people (who are not as common as some news stories or politicians make it sound) that are deterring people from coming downtown. Other than a hockey game or concert, a few nice restaurants or bars, there is not much to do. This has become noticeably worse since COVID when many downtown businesses closed leaving so many vacant store fronts now, but it has been an issue for years
Sadly the city has always mostly treated downtown retail businesses as an afterthought or neglected them. That really needs to change if downtown is going to revive.