Toll Roads / Mileage Tax

[Daveography]

Edmonton Chamber of Commerce says toll roads burden Edmonton businesses
City councillors were given a clear message from the Edmonton Chamber of Commerce on Tuesday: toll roads are not good for business.

The combination of fees and taxes are already pushing some Edmonton businesses to the tipping point, said Joseph Yurkovich, a member of the Finance and Taxation Committee of the Chamber.

Businesses end up moving outside the city's boundaries when they're faced with too many taxes, he added.

"The chamber's position is somewhat opposed to the idea of an over-reliance on user fees," Yurkovich told councillors.

Full Story (CBC Edmonton)

 

[thommyjo]

This is slightly off topic, but not sure where else to post.
Has anyone heard of a tax on vehicle kms? I know the fuel taxes sort of accomplish this, but as we move towards more electric vehicles and as we seek to transition more people to sustainable transport, do you think this would be valuable?

I know challenges like affordable housing would be closely tied to this, but it seems helpful as an incentive to live and work closer together, rather than long, unsustainable commutes that require more roads, maintenance, increase emissions, etc. I would imagine this would help transit adoption, especially for routine trips like work/school. Vehicles would probably have to come with a device for it? Or it be linked to the odometers?

Cities should charge drivers by distance travelled, says US network - Cities Today

Cities should experiment with a form of road tax that would see car...

cities-today.com

 

[RH van der Rohe]

Many ring roads in Texas and other US states are tolled. I would not recommend that system to anyone.

 

[TAS]

On any given day, 32 per cent of the traffic on city roads comes from regional residents — those who do not call Edmonton home. The remaining 68 per cent of drivers live in Edmonton.

Conversely, usage of regional roads outside the city have 9.1% of Edmontonians.

“I found it shocking. I was really surprised,” papastew Coun. Michael Janz said. “We as Edmontonians are paying more but getting less.

“We’ve heard a lot about a free-rider problem on public transit where people are riding and not paying, but we have a major free-rider problem on our roadways.”

Rather than a toll or parking tax, Janz suggests that the best solution would be to increase provincial grants to city.

The province paid 100% of the $661 million cost of current Deerfoot expansion in Calgary, but only about 25% of the yellowhead project in Edmonton, which is heavily used by people outside the city.

More than 30% of people who drive on Edmonton roads don’t live in the city: report - Edmonton | Globalnews.ca

About one-third of traffic on Edmonton's roads comes from out-of-town drivers, a new report says. The city hopes it will be able to eventually share the cost.

globalnews.ca

 

[archited]

Are these people just "drive-bys"? -- I doubt it. They probably work and shop in Edmonton to a very large extent and so in their own way contribute to the overall Edmonton economy. This concern seems like a non-starter to me -- there are better places to focus societal concerns.

 

[David A]

On any given day, 32 per cent of the traffic on city roads comes from regional residents — those who do not call Edmonton home. The remaining 68 per cent of drivers live in Edmonton.

Conversely, usage of regional roads outside the city have 9.1% of Edmontonians.

“I found it shocking. I was really surprised,” papastew Coun. Michael Janz said. “We as Edmontonians are paying more but getting less.

“We’ve heard a lot about a free-rider problem on public transit where people are riding and not paying, but we have a major free-rider problem on our roadways.”

Rather than a toll or parking tax, Janz suggests that the best solution would be to increase provincial grants to city.

The province paid 100% of the $661 million cost of current Deerfoot expansion in Calgary, but only about 25% of the yellowhead project in Edmonton, which is heavily used by people outside the city.

More than 30% of people who drive on Edmonton roads don’t live in the city: report - Edmonton | Globalnews.ca

About one-third of traffic on Edmonton's roads comes from out-of-town drivers, a new report says. The city hopes it will be able to eventually share the cost.

globalnews.ca

We're not going to set up checkpoints to enter the city or discourage them, people from outside the city are visiting local businesses, family and friends or attending events - all beneficial. We want people to come here.

Neither do toll roads make sense. The problem is not people from out of town coming here, but the disparity in especially in provincial funding for roads that are used by people outside the city.

 

[thommyjo]

Are these people just "drive-bys"? -- I doubt it. They probably work and shop in Edmonton to a very large extent and so in their own way contribute to the overall Edmonton economy. This concern seems like a non-starter to me -- there are better places to focus societal concerns.

Folks in big lake and windemere and walker also shop and work in Edmonton….the difference is they ALSO pay taxes that cover the roads, snow clearing, fire, etc.

The classic “they contribute” argument is silly when all residents also contribute ….AND pay thousands in taxes.

They also increase congestion more than they would if they either a) lived within the city where higher rates of transit and biking are used, b) lived in an actual rural area or a smaller town outside of our immediate area that meant they didn’t use our roads/services daily.

They should pay more.

A mileage tax would be ideal. But the gas tax will have to work for now and the province funnelling that money into our major roadways like the yellowhead is a way to bring a bit more equality.

 

[SarcasticMarmot]

The classic “they contribute” argument is silly when all residents also contribute ….AND pay thousands in taxes.

They also increase congestion more than they would if they either a) lived within the city where higher rates of transit and biking are used, b) lived in an actual rural area or a smaller town outside of our immediate area that meant they didn’t use our roads/services daily.

They should pay more.

I think this is one of the key issues. We end up building alot of our most overbuilt, and expensive thoroughfares for the people who commute into the city and yet they don't pay for it directly the way we do. Gateway, Stoney Plain Road, St. Albert Trail, etc. are all really expensive routes to build and maintain. I don't think it is unfair to expect those that use them to pay for them, whatever the mechanism.

 

[HappyJazzz]

I think this is one of the key issues. We end up building alot of our most overbuilt, and expensive thoroughfares for the people who commute into the city and yet they don't pay for it directly the way we do. Gateway, Stoney Plain Road, St. Albert Trail, etc. are all really expensive routes to build and maintain. I don't think it is unfair to expect those that use them to pay for them, whatever the mechanism.

While I somewhat agree with you in principle, the roads you mention are all 'least effort' corridors.
If those were all 6 lane freeways, then I'd say some sort of tolling mechanism would be appropriate.

But as it stands, one could argue that the urban access Edmonton provides actually discourages outside users, and I think all the head offices that have set up or moved to those outlying communities recently proves that point.

Just like water and electricity, commuters will follow the path of least resistance...

 

[archited]

Folks in big lake and windemere and walker also shop and work in Edmonton….the difference is they ALSO pay taxes that cover the roads, snow clearing, fire, etc.

The classic “they contribute” argument is silly when all residents also contribute ….AND pay thousands in taxes.

They also increase congestion more than they would if they either a) lived within the city where higher rates of transit and biking are used, b) lived in an actual rural area or a smaller town outside of our immediate area that meant they didn’t use our roads/services daily.

Achtung! You must live in the City or you will be punished. Also you must ride a bicycle or have a transit pass or you will be punished. How authoritarian this all sounds. Utopian Animal Farm thinking.

 

[TAS]

Achtung! You must live in the City or you will be punished. Also you must ride a bicycle or have a transit pass or you will be punished. How authoritarian this all sounds. Utopian Animal Farm thinking.

I think the ask is to have the province better support the city on some of its infrastructure that is a key part of people's daily commutes into the city from the region. Or maybe some additional regional cooperation - like what was done with the International Airport?

 

[thommyjo]

Achtung! You must live in the City or you will be punished. Also you must ride a bicycle or have a transit pass or you will be punished. How authoritarian this all sounds. Utopian Animal Farm thinking.

“punished”? Or asked to pay for what you use? Pretending to be a victim when it’s about equity and your own freedom to choose is pretty pathetic.

I take it that you see a tax on smoking as communist as well? Not a well researched, data backed approach to recoup costs due to the negative externalities of it and as a methoto disincentivize undesirable behaviour that hurts others?

Speed limits must really ruffle your feathers too.

Using the word authoritarian when it doesn’t apply is called catastrophizing. And me suggesting we find a way to make people pay for the infrastructure they use isn’t animal farm haha. Your logical fallacies abound

 

[archited]

 

[archited]

I think the ask is to have the province better support the city on some of its infrastructure that is a key part of people's daily commutes into the city from the region. Or maybe some additional regional cooperation - like what was done with the International Airport?

That I can support... the conversation re "toll roads" is something other. I could support a tax on bad ideas and misguided solutions.

 

[Offworld]

Ultimately, probably the cleanest way to address the matter is disproportionately weight funding to Edmonton, and pound-for-pound diminish funding to the exurbs.

And don't get me started about the HAMLET of Sherwood Park. Talk about gaming the system.