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LRT Expansion Planning

Like it or lump it, RM Transit has brought literally thousands of people into the conversation. He's done more than you, I, or anyone else here has done probably to bring people with these interests together.

How the fuck is RM Transit, a literal public-transit-urban-planning-nerd youtuber, so controversial with some people?
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It seems there are some people here threatened by the opinion of individuals from out of town. Personally ideas from other sources can be helpful and enlightening. In the current situation we had an individual who has dedicated a large percentage of his time focusing on rail transit from around the world, who chose to express his opinions on our system here and giving his two cents, whats wrong with that? At no point do I recall him saying that our planning dept and other shareholders was out to lunch or anything like that. He expressed his opinion as to what he would do, haven't many of us done the same thing on this or other forums? Just because he doesn't call Edmonton his current place of residence he isn't allowed to express his opinion?
I swear this toxic Homer style attitude should not be welcome here. If a person is courteous and voices an opinion he or she has the right to do so without receiving attacks on their credentials or their character. So I guess because I don't have a degree in planning, or engineering or architecture I have no right to comment? and because I only live in Edmonton I'm not allowed to comment on anything anywhere other than here?
If someone wants to make a post here they can do so, if someone wants to create a video (which is positive) about this city and post it online it, great. Any positive mentions of this city posted, especially on a popular social media channel, is more than welcome.
Reece treats Edmonton as a city with no plan, no vision. That was Edmonton in 2015. Bus Network Redesign was the first step towards Edmonton actually having a vision.

The City Plan which was approved in 2020 which covers Mass Transit Planning, Mobility Network, District Planning. I actually think it's a reasonable vision & I also consider the complexities of urban & transportation planning.

Reece has ideas for BRT alignments...

Meanwhile, Urban Planning Committee will receive a report from Urban Planning & Economy + ETS on bus based Mass Transit alignments & implementation on August 27. That work was developed with public engagement & residents were engaged.

Edmonton Transit Service Advisory Board (ETSAB) may receive the report earlier in order to provide feedback to City Council as is within their mandate.

I would never attack any member here for their ideas & opinions on transit expansion. Agree to disagree. I am actually a little concerned about Edmonton Transit Riders (ETR) giving attention to Reece's vision because I think it WILL diminish their credibility with city administration (Edmonton Transit Service).

Reece? As a career city/transit commentator, that does not apply to him. It's more than just mis-prouncing words, it's about having respect for Edmontonians who actually care enough about their city to consider, think critically & understand about what their city is actually doing.

My harsh criticism stands, minus the personal attacks.
 
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Thank you for the link, however, I see nothing that shows any actual useage by any authority.

Have I missed something???
 
So one little thing that is interesting to see. As of just before I wrote this post the number of views for Reece's video is 40 764 and has 2.1K likes. I know that this doesn't seem like much for some people, but the fact that those numbers at least tell me that there are more and more people interested by train systems learning of Edmonton.
 
Does anyone know why 121st, and the entire old rail ROW that goes all the way to the VIA Rail station never been considered publicly by the city as an option for a Valley Line Spur? You'd connect all of 124th to the LRT system, add an additional Blatchford connection on the west side, serve 118th with a good transit connection. It would almost certainly be under $300 million with 3-4 stops.

It would also be the cheapest, and least disruptive extension per kilometer.
 
Does anyone know why 121st, and the entire old rail ROW that goes all the way to the VIA Rail station never been considered publicly by the city as an option for a Valley Line Spur? You'd connect all of 124th to the LRT system, add an additional Blatchford connection on the west side, serve 118th with a good transit connection. It would almost certainly be under $300 million with 3-4 stops.

It would also be the cheapest, and least disruptive extension per kilometer.
agreed, in fact back when the cnr lands were still available, the city could have run a surface line down them out west with a leg north up 121st and out to st albert (the old interurban line). Said line could have turned south at 109th (the cpr lines) and tied into the high level and points south...
 
Does anyone know why 121st, and the entire old rail ROW that goes all the way to the VIA Rail station never been considered publicly by the city as an option for a Valley Line Spur? You'd connect all of 124th to the LRT system, add an additional Blatchford connection on the west side, serve 118th with a good transit connection. It would almost certainly be under $300 million with 3-4 stops.

It would also be the cheapest, and least disruptive extension per kilometer.
Perceived redundancy with the Metro Line's Blatchford stations is probably the primary reason. Better dollars to be spent in a lot of other locations to build better LRT network connectivity. Especially considering the lack of any real anchor destinations (124th and VIA rail really aren't as much as we all wish they were), and exorbitant cost to build it beyond the YHT with again a lack of any real anchor destinations beyond it until St Albert.
 
Perceived redundancy with the Metro Line's Blatchford stations is probably the primary reason. Better dollars to be spent in a lot of other locations to build better LRT network connectivity. Especially considering the lack of any real anchor destinations (124th and VIA rail really aren't as much as we all wish they were), and exorbitant cost to build it beyond the YHT with again a lack of any real anchor destinations beyond it until St Albert.
124th has a lot of density as you get closer to 118th, and there's a ton of businesses on the east side of the ROW. The VIA Station could be the end of the spur while serving the north side of Prince Charles and the north west side of Blatchford. People in West Blatchford won't be using the metro line.

I can't think of a better value extension than this per dollar spent. Like I said, it would be under $300 million. More is spent on freeway interchanges in this city.
 
124th has a lot of density as you get closer to 118th, and there's a ton of businesses on the east side of the ROW. The VIA Station could be the end of the spur while serving the north side of Prince Charles and the north west side of Blatchford. People in West Blatchford won't be using the metro line.

I can't think of a better value extension than this per dollar spent. Like I said, it would be under $300 million. More is spent on freeway interchanges in this city.
Hopefully someone can sketch this out so we can visualize this route easier.
 
124th has a lot of density as you get closer to 118th, and there's a ton of businesses on the east side of the ROW. The VIA Station could be the end of the spur while serving the north side of Prince Charles and the north west side of Blatchford. People in West Blatchford won't be using the metro line.

I can't think of a better value extension than this per dollar spent. Like I said, it would be under $300 million. More is spent on freeway interchanges in this city.
actually, with proper redevelopment, the via station could also be a LRT station and intercity bus station, and 121st was abandoned long before blatchford was an idea, remember 97th street is so very wide as there were plans to run an LRT up the middle, but those plans have also been cancelled
 
remember 97th street is so very wide as there were plans to run an LRT up the middle, but those plans have also been cancelled
Was there ever plans concrete enough to say that a 97 St LRT line was "cancelled"? I wouldn't doubt that the widening of 97 St could have the benefit today of running LRT or BRT along the RoW some how, and some plans have shown a line down 97 St, but I don't recall any specific plans that would been far enough along that 97 St was widened for LRT.
In fact, I would be curious to learn about why 97 St was widened south of the CN Walker Yards. I suspect it was do with the construction of the Yellowhead?

Anyways, this is an interesting source as it includes maps of previous plans:
1963- Bechtel did recommend a 97 St route
1968- Bakker Report on Public Transportation did not recommend a 97 St route
1970,71- De Leuw, Cather studies did not recommend a 97 St route
1972- University Practicum in Rapid Transit does have a north Edmonton route, but this route follows an alignment more or less along 106 St, crossing the Walker Yards, and did run to 97 St/ 137 Ave, but did so a few blocks west of 97 St.
1974- Alternate Rapid Transit Routes similar North Edmonton route to the 1972 study, but traveling north of 137 Ave along 97 St. Like the 1972 plan, south of 137 Ave the 97 St corridor is not used.

The report then evaluates a large number of different alternate routes all over the city, with some options using 97 St, however it seems to conclude the best option to serve north Edmonton is a line via the CN RoW on 121 Ave to 127 Ave, to the CN Walker Yards and then there's two alternate alignments from there. 97 St is showing specifically having "Main Bus Service".
The report also concludes that priorities should be:
1. South
2 West
3. North
Although I can't rule out that there wasn't a consideration for LRT on 97 St, the planning done in the years before the widening did not favour LRT along 97 St, and the north corridor was the least priority.
 
This is what I have been imagining. My apologies for how amateur it may be, I just slapped it together quickly. Starting at Brewery District along the VLW alignment, Terminating the Spur at the VIA station.

Brewery District.png
111th Ave Westmount.png
118th Ave Inglewood.png
VIA Rail Prince Rupert.png


What we're looking at is a branch line that feeds to and from downtown. It could terminate at MWTC, or anywhere else in between. More complex switching is possible to allow for connection to this spur from the west, but I don't see the point since you could simply transfer at Brewery/120 ST or the Yards/116 ST.

I would recommend identical wire fencing to the Metro line in Blatchford along the majority of the alignment due to the proximity to the park and MUPs. Pedestrian crossings would share the design of the Metro expansion in Blatchford.
My preference for stops would be far more bare bones than the current Valley Line. For cost reasons, I'd recommend what is essentially a raised sidewalk with benches and wind shelters with timed wave on heaters.

Concrete sleepers on a standard ballast would be preferred for the majority of this alignment. Concrete embedded tracks would be ideal for all street crossings, and the 121 St section next to Brewery.

This extension would very realistically cost $150-250m. It would serve a large amount of apartments that line 124th street, it would solve the much needed connection to the VIA station, and it would allow for future expansion across the Yellowhead along a similar line to the old tram.

I really like the idea @Habibfazil had about an Intercity bus station. Obviously ETS could terminate some routes here, but inviting Flixbus to stage their pickups and dropoffs at this location would also be a positive.

I think the city could receive significant money from the feds and the provincial government for this. Especially if they sold this as a commitment to regional rail, which is Smith's brightest spot IMO.

Thanks.

Edit: I clicked on the link that @EdwardEdm posted after making this. It appears that I just recreated a new version of the Northwest Line from the old planning documents.

Northwest Valleyline.png


 
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I have an old friend who works on the catenary who has suggested otherwise, and based on the engineers I've talked to this is not the case - speed limit is much lower than that, the poles being closer together is inherent to the design.

Using different contact in tunnels is common, I haven't looked at it in the tunnel in quite some time, but I assumed it was semi-rigid (which of course still has a "wire") which is common around the world. Lower speeds are usually ok in a city centre tunnel with fairly tight spacings, and mounting is typically much more rigid.

The OCS definitely supports lower speeds without a support wire, the frequency of poles does not mitigate for that. Single wire design is common for low speed trams and depots, without a support wire you are going to have lower allowable speeds - "At the other end of the scale, a tram depot may have just a single wire hung directly from insulated supports. As a pantograph passes along it, the wire can be seen to rise and fall." - the amount of tensioning possible through the supports is limited (it tends to largely come from the panto). Some good reading for those interested here:

http://www.railway-technical.com/infrastructure/electric-traction-power.html (Piers Connor is great)
Sorry late reply. I had to do some research into this one.
Firstly, your links. I was REALLY hoping they would have some specifics, such as X type construction allows operation of LRV's at X speed, while Y type of construction allows operation at Y speed. Unfortunately, that was not the case. In fact, trying to find any information like that is very tough. I've ended up reading though a number design guidelines for LRT lines, which off the top of my head included: San Diego, Denver, Metrolinx, Phoenix, as well as few documents from the Transportation Research Board. A number of documents did differentiate between simple contact wire, and a tensioned, flexible contact wire and simple catenary.

I did double check today. In particular, the tunnel from South Portal to University Station has a speed limit of 70 km/h. It features elastic support arms, which ETS's design standards call for 11m spacing. It is a single, tensioned contact wire. It is NOT catenary, so most certainly with proper design a single contact wire does support 70 km/h speeds on Edmonton's LRT. I believe North Portal to Grandin might also be 70 km/h, but there is also a section break right North Portal so trains do have to coast through that.
This is where my assumption comes in: the Blatchford extension in an attempt to make a more esthetically pleasing OCS, it uses a flexible, tensioned single contact wire. On account of not having the messenger cable, the span length between poles is reduced to compensate, but should surely have no problem supporting higher speed operation if the track allowed it. Just because ETS chose this OCS design it is not sign that Edmonton is trying to lower the speeds to an "urban LRT".
Incidentally, the Valley Line has a 65 km/h zone in the Quarters tunnel, again with flexible suspension of a single contact wire.

I did find two sources to support my assumption that the design of the Blatchford extension catenary is not necessarily limited to slower speeds.

Page 65:
"The flexibility and performance of the OCS can be improved by providing the contact wire with a flexible support in the form of a bridle. This is more commonly used in LRT systems where speeds can operate to 80 km/h. The contact wire may either have fixed terminations or be automatically tensioned. Parallel feeder requirements are similar to the simply suspended OCS."

This one is actually an Edmonton source, Robert Clark: https://www.trolleycoalition.org/pdf/lrtreport.pdf
Page 63:
"The simplest design of overhead conductor has proved sufficient in most cases for speeds up to 50 km/hr. This was designed originally for trolley poles and uses a single conductor with more or less flexible supports at 30 m (100 ft.) intervals; both ends are anchored. Temperature change leads to a change in the sag of the conductor which must be compensated for by vertical travel of the pantograph. A system which incorporates automatic tensioning guarantees a constant sag and may be used for pantograph operation at speeds of up to 70 km/hr. Earlier installations used a weight and pulley system to achieve this tensioning similar to the catenary system, but modern design achieves constant sag through support of the conductor by angular disposition of drop wires. The overhead is erected in zig‐zag fashion between from support to support and expansion due to temperature change is accommodated by change in the angle of the hangers. This is the type of suspension which is currently in use on trolley bus routes in Edmonton (Figure 9.15.1). It is the cheapest to construct and maintain and would be suitable for application to rights‐of‐way in categories C, D, and E when speeds are not likely to exceed 70 km/hr. because of constraints other than overhead design, and power demand is moderate."

I was quite curious myself if there were posted speed limits along the Blatchford extension beyond the NAIT station. There are not, other than some 30 km/h signs for approaching the station. However, there is a sign declaring that you are leaving ABS authority, and entering yard limits, so presumably that's why there' are no posted speed limits because yard rules apply. Naturally, this will change once the track to the Blatchford Gate Station open, but, until then... yard rules and speeds.
 
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This is what I have been imagining. My apologies for how amateur it may be, I just slapped it together quickly. Starting at Brewery District along the VLW alignment, Terminating the Spur at the VIA station.

View attachment 580730View attachment 580731View attachment 580732View attachment 580733

What we're looking at is a branch line that feeds to and from downtown. It could terminate at MWTC, or anywhere else in between. More complex switching is possible to allow for connection to this spur from the west, but I don't see the point since you could simply transfer at Brewery/120 ST or the Yards/116 ST.

I would recommend identical wire fencing to the Metro line in Blatchford along the majority of the alignment due to the proximity to the park and MUPs. Pedestrian crossings would share the design of the Metro expansion in Blatchford.
My preference for stops would be far more bare bones than the current Valley Line. For cost reasons, I'd recommend what is essentially a raised sidewalk with benches and wind shelters with timed wave on heaters.

Concrete sleepers on a standard ballast would be preferred for the majority of this alignment. Concrete embedded tracks would be ideal for all street crossings, and the 121 St section next to Brewery.

This extension would very realistically cost $150-250m. It would serve a large amount of apartments that line 124th street, it would solve the much needed connection to the VIA station, and it would allow for future expansion across the Yellowhead along a similar line to the old tram.

I really like the idea @Habibfazil had about an Intercity bus station. Obviously ETS could terminate some routes here, but inviting Flixbus to stage their pickups and dropoffs at this location would also be a positive.

I think the city could receive significant money from the feds and the provincial government for this. Especially if they sold this as a commitment to regional rail, which is Smith's brightest spot IMO.

Thanks.

Utilizing the 121 street alignment is a great idea there is a lot of possibility for redevelopment. The biggest problem is the VLW will need all the capacity it can get. It makes little sense to run a five minute frequency to MWTC but not WEM. If the corridor was developed the train should run all the way down 121 to Jasper avenue then possibly east to 95 street and north to 118 avenue.
 

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