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David A
Senior Member
It is not so much that Edmontonians don't have a higher income - we actually compare very favorably to the major cities in Canada, higher than Vancouver and not far off from Toronto. The economy hasn't been so strong here in the last few years, so we don't currently have a big inflow either from other parts of Canada or immigrants to boost real estate values. Also, perhaps more importantly we are not constrained by mountains or oceans or by lands where development is more restricted for agricultural or natural preservation reasons. People in Toronto are not paying so much for condos because they are so rich, it is because houses cost much more and are unaffordable for them.
ChazYEG
Senior Member
It's not just a matter of income, as you pointed out. Is a matter of a certain kind of demographics, as much as of geographic constraints, as well.
Generally speaking, the demographics of industries such as IT, Finance and other white collar "trendy" jobs has a higher tendency to be young, urban, more environmentally conscious and to have less kids, even at a later age, which tends to draw them to downtowns and adjacencies, where you find more vibrancy, urban life, transit, walkability, etc. It also much more convenient to live in central neighborhoods or dense ToDs if you work in an office building in Downtown. On the other hand, our high income is currently concentrated in blue collar jobs, which, in general, tends to be mote traditional and suburban. Add to that the fact that industrial areas are usually more accessible to suburbs than to downtown cores, making an "inner city" living inconvenient, for obvious reasons, and what you already mentioned, of the vast availability of cheap, flat and unrestricted land to develop, and you have endless suburban sprawl like we do in Edmonton.
To solve this issue in the long term, we need to tackle it from several fronts, from artificially restricting greenfield development, to making transit more accessible and convenient for people who work outside of the core to, as I mentioned, landing more HQs or offices that will attract a certain demographic to life in the core.
thommyjo
Senior Member
Yes! Exactly this ^
A programmer at Microsoft or a marketing exec for Amazon has a way higher chance of living DT than an electrician, rig worker, or even a provincial government employee in their 40s and 50s. Different values and styles, even if incomes are similar.
Even just the fact that most of the best, most driven, most talented people in areas like tech leave edmonton for Van, Tor, the valley means the tech workers we do have can be lower level. Obviously a huge generalizarion, don't mean to offend. But its just how it works. All my finance buddies that embraced the ibanking lifestyle the most are in NY or Toronto. Calgary if they were less ambitious. Edmonton if they were a B/B- student who isn't trying to "make it" in the field.
So all that to say, the luxury lifestyle and trendy urban culture in many big cities is driven by these affluent and ambitious young people...who are the people who leave edmonton often. Those who stay don't as often carry the same culture. They're happy to take a 90k a year developer position at AHS to build some programs and fix bugs on outdated Healthcare systems and only have to work 9-5. They buy a house in the burbs to have a family and whatever. Vs the developer making 180k at a 4 year old startup in Vancouver who works till 9pm most days, eats out most meals, networks harder, and has a higher drive for success. They'll buy a 900k condo DT or rent a 2800+ one.
A programmer at Microsoft or a marketing exec for Amazon has a way higher chance of living DT than an electrician, rig worker, or even a provincial government employee in their 40s and 50s. Different values and styles, even if incomes are similar.
Even just the fact that most of the best, most driven, most talented people in areas like tech leave edmonton for Van, Tor, the valley means the tech workers we do have can be lower level. Obviously a huge generalizarion, don't mean to offend. But its just how it works. All my finance buddies that embraced the ibanking lifestyle the most are in NY or Toronto. Calgary if they were less ambitious. Edmonton if they were a B/B- student who isn't trying to "make it" in the field.
So all that to say, the luxury lifestyle and trendy urban culture in many big cities is driven by these affluent and ambitious young people...who are the people who leave edmonton often. Those who stay don't as often carry the same culture. They're happy to take a 90k a year developer position at AHS to build some programs and fix bugs on outdated Healthcare systems and only have to work 9-5. They buy a house in the burbs to have a family and whatever. Vs the developer making 180k at a 4 year old startup in Vancouver who works till 9pm most days, eats out most meals, networks harder, and has a higher drive for success. They'll buy a 900k condo DT or rent a 2800+ one.
IanO
Superstar
Winnipeg's True North Square Plaza for comparison.
roe_
Active Member
So people who end up in Edmonton are either not that smart or they are less motivated than truly successful people who can make it in Toronto? Interesting perspective.
God
Active Member
He’s right. It’s because the opportunities presented for people who are smart, more motivated and ambitious are usually mostly in other cities. It’s because of the corporate culture in other cities compared to edmonton. Most our office towers here are banks or internet companies.
ChazYEG
Senior Member
I think it's a little bit of both sides... On the one hand, better job opportunities usually drawn the best people, and right now, Edmonton lags in the amount of great job opportunities for this kind of professional we mentioned. Not that we don't have them, we just have very few openings.
On the other hand, we probably attract some of the best industrial engineers and have quite a lot of high quality researchers, teachers and healthcare professionals.
On the the other hand, I feel like the few who stay and decide to grind in Edmonton and make a living in finance and IT, for example, are probably some of the bravest, most hardworking and possibly smartest people around, as making your way up in these fields with so few opportunities requires a LOT of resourcefulness, as it can get really competitive.
In the end, what happens is that we end up with the professionals he mentioned above, a lot of the low productivity and accommodated ones, on the one hand, and some, but few, of the best, at least in IT and finance. But we lack the "middle" and, also, we lack more and better opportunities to retain and attract more of the good, ambitious ones.
IanO
Superstar
To this day many new grads (thankfully decreasing in numbers) feel the need to leave to be successful. Back in 01' ~75% of my friends left to Calgary, Toronto, Vancouver to climb the corporate ladder and experience 'the big city'. While opportunity certainly is here for those that want it, the reality is that we are a fairly small market with limited growth potential in many industries that literally have dozens/hundreds of options elsewhere.
archited
Senior Member
Thanks for pointing that out @IanO and it is essentially a self-perpetuated myth. Edmonton is, I like to think, a blank-canvas City where it is easy to establish oneself if you have the smarts, the energy and the drive (you, yourself, are proof of that). There are so many hyper successful companies that have had their start in the BIG E. I can name several (and some are still going strong with head offices there) -- PCL (started as Poole Construction and is now a multi-faceted AAA-grade construction management company with world-wide clients), Stantec (started by Dr. Stanley back in the Archited E-days and is now also a global concern), Oxford Developments (which at one point had major City Centre projects on the go across most of North America -- started by Don Love, taken over by the brat kids who moved to Toronto and filleted the entire company their dad built to personal benefit), Triple-5 (started by Iranian immigrants and are in the habit of building mega-malls with the realization that malls -- in order to succeed -- need to have strong entertainment components to go along with the shopping-mecca concept), Rexall Drugs (started by Edmonton's pre-eminant billiornaire Daryll Katz - now owner of Edmonton's 'H' 'e' double hockey sticks skating club -- 'H' 'e' double hockey sticks -- there is even a Rexall Drugs in Ojai, California where I get my doses of stuff -- I wonder if he is sorry that he sold the thing that got him to the high-ranking money standard that he enjoys)... if these aren't in large part the creators of white-collar jobs, then I am lost on the points expounded here. And now there is an Edmonton-centric banking crew that is taking on the world based from Edmonton -- Canadian Western Bank and the reorganized financial group know as ATB. ATB is much larger in terms of assets, but CWB is much more aggressive in terms of growth strategy. And while CWB might be small potatoes compared to the Canadian heavy-weights of RBC and TD, it is comparable in size (asset-wise) to many of the banks in California that do just fine in development circles.
With this realization, it is why we are starting the physical presence of our two companies in Edmonton stressing development on the tech side in Retail, Hospitality, Theme Centres, Advertising & Marketing, and Gamification -- a matrix of ideas whereby the leg components add up to a sum greater than the total of their parts. We have our focus on two major (recognizable) structures in downtown Edmonton as our starting point. We have big plans for Edmonton and we hope to entice many graduates to stay and work with us.
With this realization, it is why we are starting the physical presence of our two companies in Edmonton stressing development on the tech side in Retail, Hospitality, Theme Centres, Advertising & Marketing, and Gamification -- a matrix of ideas whereby the leg components add up to a sum greater than the total of their parts. We have our focus on two major (recognizable) structures in downtown Edmonton as our starting point. We have big plans for Edmonton and we hope to entice many graduates to stay and work with us.
TAS
Senior Member
Whether you agree with his take or not, keep in mind he was primarily talking about the tech sector... I think.
thommyjo
Senior Member
Yeah. And just so everyone knows, I know that's a somewhat cynical and oversimplified take on things. But its still true at a macro. Micro scale there are tons of stand out, incredible people here building great companies. Jobber for example has killed it recently. But sadly, talent attracts talent, so the snowball effects happen. The best people usually want to be around the best people, which clusters them in a very small number of global cities.
I also don't think this is best, or good, or what edmonton should strive for. Toronto and NY are known for being cold and cut throat for a reason. People are loneliest in those sorts of highly mobile, expensive, super dense cities. Whereas affordable cities like edmonton with less mobile career hoppers see more people drop roots and stay for 20 years in the same home...which does wonders for community and the social fabric of a city.
But my point is that we lose great people, especially in tech, banking, architecture and entrepreneurs because edmonton is not the place to make it big in those industries.
To your point archited, I agree. There's a more blank canvas vibe to edmonton than elsewhere. Thats why I moved back here after living in Toronto and then landing a job with a company in downtown Vancouver. They let me work remote so I chose here. Family and friends played a big part, but also cause I love this city. I believe in edmonton, I love the underdog nature. And I also love the idea of helping to build a great city. Anyone can move to a great city like Vancouver. But its more fun to help build one.
Can't wait for the future city my kids will get to grow up in
I also don't think this is best, or good, or what edmonton should strive for. Toronto and NY are known for being cold and cut throat for a reason. People are loneliest in those sorts of highly mobile, expensive, super dense cities. Whereas affordable cities like edmonton with less mobile career hoppers see more people drop roots and stay for 20 years in the same home...which does wonders for community and the social fabric of a city.
But my point is that we lose great people, especially in tech, banking, architecture and entrepreneurs because edmonton is not the place to make it big in those industries.
To your point archited, I agree. There's a more blank canvas vibe to edmonton than elsewhere. Thats why I moved back here after living in Toronto and then landing a job with a company in downtown Vancouver. They let me work remote so I chose here. Family and friends played a big part, but also cause I love this city. I believe in edmonton, I love the underdog nature. And I also love the idea of helping to build a great city. Anyone can move to a great city like Vancouver. But its more fun to help build one.
Can't wait for the future city my kids will get to grow up in
David A
Senior Member
Maybe the people who pay hugely inflated prices for small places are not as quite as smart as they think they are. Sometimes the people who put forward the image of success are just in debt up to their eyeballs and that good paycheque just goes to make the payments on everything and in the end they have nothing to show for it. I would be very cautious about being envious of people who appear to be successful, those appearances are not always accurate.
A truly motivated and ambitious person can be succesful in any number of places. Bill Gates didn't start his business in the Silicon Valley and Warren Buffet didn't stay in New York. There is a herd mentality, but there is a lot of illusion around it.
Avenuer
Senior Member
EDMONTON, MAKE IT YOUR OWN!