Edmonton City Centre Mall (Renovations) | ?m | 2s | LaSalle Investment Management

[cmd uw]

I agree with some of their comments as it pertains to the shopping experience but the fact that they couldn't find a decent latte after walking by Rosewood Foods befuddles me. And if they missed that place they had Lui-Chi's and Credo a short walk down.

That being said, I think we'll be hearing some announcements as it relates to the repositioning of ECC East/West soon.

 

[David A]

Oh, totally! There’s lots of examples of people enjoying visiting here. But when we zoom out to surveys, travel patterns, hotel usage, tourism numbers…it’s clear that Edmonton is not a leader for visiting. Part of that is perceptions, part of that is also reality. Our city is at a very different level of “maturity” vs the other big cities in Canada in terms of connectivity, transit, quality hotels, entertainment options, downtown beauty/attractiveness, etc.

Many of the things that matter to visitors (hotels, entertainment) are less important to residents and vice versa when it comes to schools & affordability.

I don't think having a city more attractive and appealing to visitors and one appealing to residents needs to be trade off. Say for instance, visitors would like a nice variety of stores and services in the downtown central area and a safe clean environment. Wouldn't residents who live nearby also want that, or maybe they just don't count in this city?

On the maturity side, Edmonton as a city is around 120 years old, so yes not terribly old on a world wide scale, but old enough to be a a fairly established place by now. However, then that does not explain why downtown was more vibrant 10, 20 or 40 years ago. So if the issue is maturity, perhaps we somehow regressed and have become a teenager that does not want to grow up.

 

[Garneau2Go]

On the maturity side, Edmonton as a city is around 120 years old, so yes not terribly old on a world wide scale, but old enough to be a a fairly established place by now. However, then that does not explain why downtown was more vibrant 10, 20 or 40 years ago. So if the issue is maturity, perhaps we somehow regressed and have become a teenager that does not want to grow up.

Unfortunately Edmonton had a one two punch of the 2014 oil market crash and then Covid once the recovery was underway. My understanding is that because we're not a financial or immigration hub it's going to be a lot harder to kick-start growth again and attract capital in the core, city centre mall is a reflection of that.

I do think that with more people moving here from high cost areas like Toronto they'll bring some capital with them. I also think that Edmonton is fairly well positioned to succeed as we have a diverse economy and are the major center for anything that happens in the changing climate of the Arctic. We can have the niceties that other cities have, but we have to work much harder to get them.

 

[David A]

I agree about the one two punch, but I think we tend to sell ourselves short on being a financial centre and on immigration. There is a Federal Chartered Bank headquartered here actually right downtown, which is uncommon in Alberta and Western Canada. There are also two relatively large provincially regulated financial institutions, although one has a suburban headquarters so that might not help downtown.

I think our immigration numbers are in line and fairly good for a city of our size, but of course the larger cities such as Toronto and Vancouver do get a lot more immigrants. I agree that given affordability issues, immigrants will probably look more towards cities other than Toronto and Vancouver, so the future has better potential. Some immigrants are wealthy, but many are not.

We can, but also should have the niceties that other cities have. It will take some work, but I am hopeful in 5 or 10 years, we will look at this situation and time as an aberration, not what is normal.

 

[Greenspace]

^Most of the migration to Edmonton right now is from within Alberta or International (immigration).

Edmonton's suburbs are 50% larger than they were 20 years ago. Along with all the retail that's been developed that's gonna have an effect on Downtown. Add in empty offices and slow-ish residential growth not a great mix for major retailing.

 

[David A]

Yes, 50% growth is a reason for increased suburban retail, but it is not a reason for decreased downtown retail.

The COVID shift to work at home was no doubt a big recent problem, but over the last several decades downtown Edmonton has seen an increase in both office space and residential buildings.

 

[Greenspace]

Unfortunately our Downtown office population really hasn't changed in 20 years even though there's more buildings. It's just offices shuffling around. Recent Lloyd Sadd announcement is positive news.. There's more residents and lots more students. LaSalle really only thinks about ECC in terms of the customers it can draw from the offices it's connected to via pedways. Hopefully over time that will change over time.

 

[David A]

At one point in the last decade there were around 10 buildings over 20 stories under construction downtown, more were residential but some were office buildings as well.

So I think the stagnant downtown argument is that accurate.

 

[occidentalcapital]

Unfortunately our Downtown office population really hasn't changed in 20 years even though there's more buildings. It's just offices shuffling around. Recent Lloyd Sadd announcement is positive news.. There's more residents and lots more students. LaSalle really only thinks about ECC in terms of the customers it can draw from the offices it's connected to via pedways. Hopefully over time that will change over time.

Space densification is real. Probably 1/3 more employees now in the same amount of space. I think downtown office population actually has increased.

 

[CaptainBL]

Unfortunately our Downtown office population really hasn't changed in 20 years even though there's more buildings. It's just offices shuffling around. Recent Lloyd Sadd announcement is positive news.. There's more residents and lots more students. LaSalle really only thinks about ECC in terms of the customers it can draw from the offices it's connected to via pedways. Hopefully over time that will change over time.

This is the bone I will constantly pick with the City, the mayors, and Edmonton Global - the institutions mandated with growing the number of jobs, companies and corporate investment in downtown.

I have never once heard Edmonton's mayors publicly declare a specific and strategic mandate to increase or attract new businesses or employers to downtown Edmonton, other than generic "I support downtown" comments from Sohi.

Edmonton Global has been around since 2017 and has been publicly connected to one firm that opened a downtown office in December 2017. That firm had 30 employees in one suite in the AMII building. That firm closed up shop a month ago and Edmonton Global has now been publicly connected to 0 firms with 0 employees in downtown.

We need to change the downtown office population for reasons of 1. vibrancy 2. lower office vacancy 3. more and increased corporate taxes/higher office building valuations 4. trickle down effect of spending at and spurring other businesses development downtown.

 

[David A]

I don't want to put everything on the current mayor, afterall he was not mayor in 2017. I think the previous mayor coasted on the work done by the mayor before him, so building up downtown hasn't really not been a priority for the previous or current administration and at this point it shows. If anything the city has made things worse with a lot of never ending construction.

The majority of councilors are suburban and the current councilor for the downtown area is fairly new and does not seem willing or able to take much of a leadership role on this issue.

As a business person, I would start by taking a hard look at something that produced 0 and 0 over the last five years. Platitudes are nice, but at this point city council has to be proactive, not just reactive on this. I don't see much sign they get this or have many solid ideas on how to fix this.

 

[Greenspace]

I have it on good authority. The office worker population has not grown over 20 years.

 

[CaptainBL]

I don't want to put everything on the current mayor, afterall he was not mayor in 2017. I think the previous mayor coasted on the work done by the mayor before him, so building up downtown hasn't really not been a priority for the previous or current administration and at this point it shows. If anything the city has made things worse with a lot of never ending construction.

The majority of councilors are suburban and the current councilor for the downtown area is fairly new and does not seem willing or able to take much of a leadership role on this issue.

As a business person, I would start by taking a hard look at something that produced 0 and 0 over the last five years. Platitudes are nice, but at this point city council has to be proactive, not just reactive on this. I don't see much sign they get this or have many solid ideas on how to fix this.

My post said "mayors". That includes both Sohi and Iveson in my mind as those two have been around for a decade plus including Sohi as a councilor, and extends before them.

Edit: and I say mayors as they are the the biggest and most key brand ambassadors of the city. For reference, investors in Toronto are keen to see who will be replacing their mayor who recently stepped down. It is not all about Sohi, or Iveson for that matter, but having someone who is pro business development would certainly not hurt.

International investors hope to see business savvy mayor in Toronto, observers say - Toronto | Globalnews.ca

John Tory's tenure came to an end on Friday, capping off a turbulent week at Toronto City Hall that started Feb. 10 when he announced his resignation.

globalnews.ca

 

[David A]

What I really want to see is a mayor focused on building up our downtown, but I really don't think being business friendly or not is the primary issue.

For instance, a lot of people would criticize the last two mayors of Calgary and not being business friendly, as well as the previous mayor of Vancouver and the current mayor of Montreal. Yet somehow all those places have downtown's that are still doing fairly well.

 

[TAS]

What I really want to see is a mayor focused on building up our downtown, but I really don't think being business friendly or not is the primary issue.

For instance, a lot of people would criticize the last two mayors of Calgary and not being business friendly, as well as the previous mayor of Vancouver and the current mayor of Montreal. Yet somehow all those places have downtown's that are still doing fairly well.

I actually think Nenshi was a pretty big booster for Calgary and specifically courted several companies to set up in dt Calgary. He went on a lot of overseas trips to promote his city. I wouldn't have minded having him in our corner. He was also outspoken to the province on behalf of Calgary and didn't pull any punches with the public either haha