Blatchford Development | ?m | ?s | City of Edmonton

[EtoV]

This actually segues into UCP's throne speech in the fall wanting 10 million people in Alberta. To achieve this government would be right to encourage or even support infill and development of brownfield sites. This is because the UCP hears regularly from their rural constituents concerns about sprawl eating up good farmland. I think urbanists and rural folk might have some commonalities here.

This might be too political for this thread, but the party isn't exactly known for their consistency or understanding the causality of their actions/decisions. Claiming to want 10 million, and running an ad campaign "Alberta is calling", and then blaming the federal government for when people actually do show up and increase housing costs (in Calgary at least) isn't exactly the mark of a forward thinking party.

Not to mention their party leader sharing the stage with a man who bemoans the decrease of "European demographics", the decline of "Anglo Culture", and rants against diversity. Who do you think is going to be in those extra 6 million Danielle? Because the majority is certainly not going to be Europeans.

 

[David A]

The 10 million is more about slogans rather than real goals and serious thought about what getting there involves.

On the other hand, the much derided Alberta is Calling ad campaign seemed to work (almost too well), but it is possible the arrival of all the people after had more to do with increasing affordability problems elsewhere. So it may have happened even without that campaign.

 

[ChazYEG]

increase housing costs (in Calgary at least)

It is starting to happen here, already.
Oliver's rental prices have gone up A LOT over the past year. Anecdotally, all buildings that I looked into recently are around 30-50% more expensive than they were a year ago.
Might've not picked up for the condo and SFH market yet, but the rental market is inflating FAST

 

[erudyk_29]

Tbh I don't think it's worth it for Ontarians to move to Alberta with how the cost of living has gone up. Calgary is not much (if at all) less expensive than Toronto at this point. Rents are still higher in Toronto but I'm pretty sure overall cost of living is higher. Add to that that you need a car to live in most of Calgary, whereas Toronto has a lot more areas you don't and it's probably very close to even. Alberta has less tax, but I think cost of moving in itself probably counter balances that. Edmonton is not quite at the level of CGY but it's only a matter of time until we're as bad too. If I were living in Ontario, there would be no way I'd consider moving to Alberta except maybe for work.

 

[ChazYEG]

Tbh I don't think it's worth it for Ontarians to move to Alberta with how the cost of living has gone up. Calgary is not much (if at all) less expensive than Toronto at this point. Rents are still higher in Toronto but I'm pretty sure overall cost of living is higher. Add to that that you need a car to live in most of Calgary, whereas Toronto has a lot more areas you don't and it's probably very close to even. Alberta has less tax, but I think cost of moving in itself probably counter balances that. Edmonton is not quite at the level of CGY but it's only a matter of time until we're as bad too. If I were living in Ontario, there would be no way I'd consider moving to Alberta except maybe for work.

1 - Wages here are, on average, higher in AB.
2 - Calgary, rents are still about 60% of Toronto (and about half, here). Calgary average 2 Bedroom is around $2100, Edmonton is $1600 and Toronto is $3300.
3 - most of these people are also not thinking about renting, but buying. Average home prices in the GTA are above $1M, whereas it it was about half that in Calgary and 40% in Edmonton (Dec 2023). SFH, specifically, are over $1.2M in the GTA, around $700k in Calgary and $450k in Edmonton.
3.1 - The estimated household income needed to buy a home in Toronto is $265k, $125k in Calgary and $90k in Edmonton.
3.2 - The average household income in Calgary (highest in the country) is $140k, Edmonton is $125k and Toronto is $109k.
4 - Tied into the points above, the surplus income in AB is substantially higher, even if the overall prices (minus housing) is marginally higher. The HST/GST difference makes up for higher prices in AB, especially when you think about bigger purchases (cars, etc..).

The claim that the overall cost of living here is higher is a bold one. You'd have to make up $1200 on average, for a couple living in Calgary (if you're thinking 2 bedrooms are just for these, which is no always true, especially with WFH) to beat Toronto, in a place with substantially lower sales tax. Even if you account for a car, just an example: my car is an expensive one, my credit is terrible (high interest) and it doesn't cost me $1200 between insurance, payments and gas (which is also way cheaper here). The average car, for someone with average credit, will probably set them back around $600/month. If you look at 1 bedroom rentals, the difference is smaller, but it's likely to be carried by a single person. Calgary 1bd is on average $1700, Edmonton $1300 and Toronto $2500. That is $800 more. Not even a car will likely close the gap.

And that is not considering that even in Edmonton and Calgary, you CAN live without a car, as long as you choose well where you'll be living, and especially with these people moving from places like Van and Toronto, we'll probably see more people here interested in pushing for more accessible transit.

 

[erudyk_29]

The claim that the overall cost of living here is higher is a bold one.

I was more saying that in Calgary at least, it's as close as makes no difference. Certainly not so much cheaper that it's worth to spend the time, money and effort to move across the country.

 

[ChazYEG]

I was more saying that in Calgary at least, it's as close as makes no difference. Certainly not so much cheaper that it's worth to spend the time, money and effort to move across the country.

Did you actually see the numbers?

Especially if you want to ever be able to BUY a home (be it a condo or a house, or anything in between), it is 100% worth it, when you consider the higher incomes, lower taxes and lower prices.
$500k (even if it's split over the whole mortgage) is nothing to sniff at, and that is, if you can even get approved for one in ON, with the household income. Even the $400k difference in SFH. With the price of a single SFH in Toronto you buy a SFH in Calgary and a nice condo to rent and make passive income (maybe even a townhome). In Edmonton the difference is even more absurd. You can buy almost 3 SFH here with the price of one in Toronto. Make all of these houses with basement suites and you have 5 rents paying you forever.

Even rents are still a LOT cheaper (around 40% lower) in Calgary vs Toronto. For this to be true, everything else you spend would need to be $800-1200 more expensive than in Toronto, every month. That is A LOT.

 

[erudyk_29]

I guess so, I'd say I have a pretty high threshold for whether I'd be willing to move to make more money, I'd be willing to stay where I was and have less disposable income if I was in Toronto. I personally wouldn't make the move, especially with rising costs across the board. It also would help that I just flat out think Toronto is a nicer place to live than Alberta: better weather, less smoke from wildfires in the summer, true urban big city feel and all the amenities that come with it. So I guess I could understand why some people may do it if they're interested in a bigger house and making more money. I just don't really see that value in those types of things, especially with the margin between the two cost of living wise is shrinking each and every day.

Also side note, the average salary in the city of Toronto is actually a decent chunk bigger than both Edmonton and Calgary:

Edmonton: 56 000
Calgary: 71 000

Toronto: 94 500

Now obviously that doesn't make a difference if you're on minimum wage but if you're in a professional field (depending on which of course) you can make more money in Toronto.

 

[ChazYEG]

I guess so, I'd say I have a pretty high threshold for whether I'd be willing to move to make more money, I'd be willing to stay where I was and have less disposable income if I was in Toronto. I personally wouldn't make the move, especially with rising costs across the board. It also would help that I just flat out think Toronto is a nicer place to live than Alberta: better weather, less smoke from wildfires in the summer, true urban big city feel and all the amenities that come with it. So I guess I could understand why some people may do it if they're interested in a bigger house and making more money. I just don't really see that value in those types of things, especially with the margin between the two cost of living wise is shrinking each and every day.

It all depends on a variety of factors.
I wouldn't be able to afford the lifestyle I have living in Toronto, for example, as much as I agree with you about the positives of that city, 100%. I'd have to be making at least $2k/month NET more than I do (about $3k gross) to consider the move.

I love the more urban lifestyle, and when I was living in Oliver (which I'll be back to be soon enough) I would take as much advantage of it as I can, using transit and walking most places, but I would not be willing to give up my car, since it is of my main hobbies. To be in Toronto, I'd have to forfeit that, for example. I'd also have to give up on eating out as much as I do, and spend way less in entertainment, which would basically mean I wouldn't be taking full advantage of living in a city that offers so much of these things. I'd have to travel less (and less comfortably), as I'd have less available money.

I would also love to own a home (condo) one day, in an urban, walkable and transit accessible neighborhood. Not happening in Toronto unless I somehow manage to land a $250k+ job.

The only way I could afford all of these things is if I lived in the very fringe of the GTA, and maybe not even then, considering that the prices there are overall that much higher.

I would love to live in Toronto (and I have expressed this in several occasions), but it would either be (a) financially irresponsible or (b) a substantial decline in standard of living.

 

[SarcasticMarmot]

Even rents are still a LOT cheaper (around 40% lower) in Calgary vs Toronto. For this to be true, everything else you spend would need to be $800-1200 more expensive than in Toronto, every month. That is A LOT.

I think most of your point stands. However, it is important to note that $800-$1200 is basically the price of one car, let alone the two many families need. Average car payment is between $450-800 then insurance, gas, repairs, etc. I agree that for a family that wants to have a house and two cars the cost of living in Alberta is much cheaper than comparable in Toronto. But for a professional couple it's not the affordability slam dunk people think it is. We lived in Vancouver for cheaper than Edmonton because we didn't need a vehicle (let alone the two we basically need here), fresh groceries were cheaper and better quality, and there were more things to do that didn't cost a ton of money to participate in. The extra city life also meant we didn't feel the need for as much inside space as we do here. Don't get me wrong, I actually like Edmonton a lot more than Vancouver but like most things in life, the real answer to the comparison of affordability is "it depends".

 

[ChazYEG]

We lived in Vancouver for cheaper than Edmonton because we didn't need a vehicle (let alone the two we basically need here),

Man, where are you living that you need 2 cars for a couple? Honest question, not throwing any shade. I only have a car because it's also a hobby (and now I live in goddamn Summerside, which is a nightmare of my own doing. When I was in Oliver, I didn't really need it, and barely used it on a daily basis).

and there were more things to do that didn't cost a ton of money to participate in

Goes to a post I just made in another thread: Edmonton has A LOT of cheap/free stuff to do, but we SUCK (like, ABSOLUTELY SUCK) at advertising it, and I have to dig through social media to find it. If you ever want to find something cool and cheap to do, hit me up and I probably know a few going on.

Average car payment is between $450-800 then insurance, gas, repairs, etc

I might need to check again, because my sources might be outdated, but car + insurance here were averaging $500-600/mo not so long ago. If you don't commute, or has a short commute, gas is not a large bill.

 

[SarcasticMarmot]

Man, where are you living that you need 2 cars for a couple? Honest question, not throwing any shade. I only have a car because it's also a hobby (and now I live in goddamn Summerside, which is a nightmare of my own doing. When I was in Oliver, I didn't really need it, and barely used it on a daily basis).


Goes to a post I just made in another thread: Edmonton has A LOT of cheap/free stuff to do, but we SUCK (like, ABSOLUTELY SUCK) at advertising it, and I have to dig through social media to find it. If you ever want to find something cool and cheap to do, hit me up and I probably know a few going on.


I might need to check again, because my sources might be outdated, but car + insurance here were averaging $500-600/mo not so long ago. If you don't commute, or has a short commute, gas is not a large bill.

Ya, those numbers are definitely low at this point. And you can't just write off commuting, people's jobs change more easily than their housing. Neither of us work from home or work downtown, so transit doesn't get us to work in a reasonable time. We actually only have one car at the moment, but if my wife changes which school she teaches at we will need a second. I agree that you can certainly live car free in Edmonton if you really want to, but its much more limiting than living car free in a big city. I hate that our city refuses to meaningfully invest in transit but its a costly reality.

 

[ChazYEG]

. I hate that our city refuses to meaningfully invest in transit but its a costly reality.

They try but, amongst other things, the mayor-council system is a hinderance on the power the city of Edmonton has to actually get stuff done (we waste too many opportunities over the city council being dominated by suburbanites), and the province ends up having too much of a say on things.

 

[EtoV]

I might need to check again, because my sources might be outdated, but car + insurance here were averaging $500-600/mo not so long ago. If you don't commute, or has a short commute, gas is not a large bill.

Obviously this will be different for everyone, and is likely lower in Alberta due to gas prices, but the cost is still quite high:

It costs more than $1,300 per month to own a car in Canada: report - BNN Bloomberg

It costs more than $1,300 per month in Canada to service all of a car’s needs, a new report has found.

www.bnnbloomberg.ca

 

[thommyjo]

I don’t think people talking about cars have ever actually lived in the GTA…

Out of the 9mil+ in and around the Golden Horseshoe, MAYBE 1-2 mil of those people are in areas with good enough transit to ditch car ownership.

Literally look at the highways. The vast majority of the GTA is using the 401, 400, 407etc every day.

And a lot of the people attracted to move aren’t those living in downtown Toronto with high paying jobs and urban lifestyles. It’s those in Burlington, barrie, Ajax, Guelph, Kingston etc who are still paying a million dollars to live in essentially edgemont type neighborhoods with 1hr of traffic to go anywhere that’s not a suburban neighborhood or power centre.

So the point on cars is mostly moot tbh.