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Downtown Real Estate

On the outside of Rogers Place they need to do something with the old Baccarat Casino space.
On the inside of Rogers Place they need to do something with the old Grand Villa Casino space.
I think Katz buying the Boyle Street building was the final piece he needed to begin development of the baccarat casino space.

I've heard rumblings of some type of mall/shopping area. I've even heard Holt Renfrew as a potential tenant once built.

All hearsay though.
 
not like the Vancouver and Toronto style projects you are expecting.
I am not expecting condos like Vancouver and Toronto -- I specifically said that Edmonton is fortunate NOT to have those kinds of development. And you know what is on the other side of development in Edmonton post-COVID how???
 
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Holt ain't coming back.
Their store here was nice ... in 1980. It seems like they treated the Edmonton market like an afterthought for quite a while and just let it gradually decline. There are a lot of other good retailers out there worth attracting. We can do better.
 
It's a real shame that we lost Sporting Life from BG's north CRU.

That said, it might have been a death knell for Sportchek and Atmosphere (which I worry is forthcoming) in ECC.

I'd love to see a standalone Adidas lifestyle store in ICE, but we simply do not have the footfall, density or complimentary stores to make that a reality.
 
Holt Renfrew, Canada's luxury department store, will never come back to the fastest growing, second-most wealthy city in the country, soon to hit 1.7 million population and on its way to 2 mil? Never? I don't think they'll be able to stay away for long, unless they are planning to go bankrupt... Did you say that you were a booster for Edmonton? It sure sounds like you are a bit of a downer on the city.
 
I'm a realist when it comes to this kind of thing; they are not returning. Simply put, Edmonton didn't fit or reflect their 'brand'.

We are a very (extremely) small market when it comes to luxury/top-end fashion/accessories and don't mistake '2nd highest HHI' with actual wealth. Edmonton doesn't even rank when it comes to 'wealth' relative to larger markets. We punch above our weight class, but are still a welterweight in the grand scheme of things.

Holt has systematically exited secondary markets across Canada and made it crystal (they mentioned it a few years ago) that their focus is on the class A markets in Canada, with Calgary being a bit of an outlier due to wealth, international (US mostly) travellers and its massive still sorta new expansion.

They ain't returning and don't even see us in the rearview good sir.

It's not ideal, but does allow for other brands/stores to capitalize on this decision. Simons, Singer to a certain extent and a few spots like The Helm.

I'm still a booster, but have added a secondary lens to help see Edmonton for what it is (and what it could be, if we want it to be).
 
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I am not expecting condos like Vancouver and Toronto -- I specifically said that Edmonton is fortunate NOT to have those kinds of development. And you know what is on the other side of development in Edmonton post-COVID how???

I am not sure why you are so confident that there will be condo towers sprouting up in downtown Edmonton despite virtually all developers not willing to take this risk. I am willing to be surprised, but I am certain I won't be.
 
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The reason that overall downtown condo prices have not risen is not because there are not enough luxury buildings. Luxury buildings by their definition cater to a small percentage of the population. In Toronto and Vancouver, the market demands condo buildings for different types of income earners. There is not enough demand overall for condo purchasers in the Edmonton market and no there are not a number of downtown condo projects being unveiled in 2022, you are making that up.

1 - Having good amenities does not necessarily mean luxury. To my view, Edmonton has barely any luxury condos, even those who position themselves as such. I'd say maybe the JW Residences, the Pearl and MAYBE a handful of other buildings scattered between Grandin, Oliver and Downtown. What we have are overpriced good quality condos and a terrible mismatch between the offered quality, prices and demand, which keeps propelling people who could be interested in condos to buy houses in greenfield developments.

2 - There are a few condos proposed and/or expected in DT, for 2022. This include some developments that have been approved or proposed before the pandemic, like the Hudson, and some we already know are happening, like The Parks. There is also hope that the Tower BG will break ground, or at least a timeframe will be announced.

3 - Tying on point 1: as more developments, with higher quality get built, there is a tendency that the price points lower for the lower/average quality ones, as the reference point changes. Right now, our stock of condos in the central region is mostly comprised of older, 60s to 90s buildings, with very feel amenities, if any at all. This means that buildings that are pretty much average, or slight above average, on most markets similar do Edmonton in North America, are being sold as luxury condos here. As they become the norm, or at least more common (and their prices drop given the lackluster demand, given current prices), I can easily see demand rising, especially as we begin to see more family oriented units (3bdrm and townhomes).

4 - Part of the low demand can be explained by the current lack of amenities in the area. We're still waiting for a grocery store in the core (soon to be corrected) and we need at least one hardware store, to say the least, we also need entertainment that isn't pubs or oilers games (a Rec Room would do wonders for DT). If I need to drive 5-10 blocks to buy groceries, 15 minutes to buy nails to hang paintings or half an hour to a movie theatre or any entertainment , then living in the core is less convenient than it should, as much as I might enjoy the lifestyle, and that will push me towards other places: either condos/apartments in Oliver or houses if I really want a condo (my case) or a house in a soulless wasteland we like to call residential suburbs. People who choose to live DT will be looking for convenience, and I'd bet a good amount of money that there will be much more demand once we start providing such amenities.

We also need to have EPS and the CoE to work on safety and upkeep, although this is a problem much bigger and that also affects businesses and rentals.

The current lack of demand for condos in Edmonton is much less related to the lack of people preferring condos do houses, and much more related to the overpriced units and lack of amenities (both in the buildings and in the area). We'll only be able to assess the actual balance of demand between condos and houses once we have more condos entering the market competitively, either with higher quality of lower prices.
 
'We also need to have EPS and the CoE to work on safety and upkeep, although this is a problem much bigger and that also affects businesses and rentals.'

It's the number one or two (growing family = TH/House needs) reason most folks I know are leaving, are considering leaving or have left.
 
'We also need to have EPS and the CoE to work on safety and upkeep, although this is a problem much bigger and that also affects businesses and rentals.'

It's the number one or two (growing family = TH/House needs) reason most folks I know are leaving, are considering leaving or have left.
There's no questioning this.

As much as I understand that there's a deeper social and health crisis, I'd kill (pun intended) to have a stronger police presence (beat cops), more surveillance cameras (with a real time monitoring station) and a quicker response to 911 calls.

The general upkeep is also terrible, and we do need to improve it, as it does help the feeling of safety. DT needs to look safe as much as it needs to actually be safe.
 
1 - Having good amenities does not necessarily mean luxury. To my view, Edmonton has barely any luxury condos, even those who position themselves as such. I'd say maybe the JW Residences, the Pearl and MAYBE a handful of other buildings scattered between Grandin, Oliver and Downtown. What we have are overpriced good quality condos and a terrible mismatch between the offered quality, prices and demand, which keeps propelling people who could be interested in condos to buy houses in greenfield developments.

2 - There are a few condos proposed and/or expected in DT, for 2022. This include some developments that have been approved or proposed before the pandemic, like the Hudson, and some we already know are happening, like The Parks. There is also hope that the Tower BG will break ground, or at least a timeframe will be announced.

3 - Tying on point 1: as more developments, with higher quality get built, there is a tendency that the price points lower for the lower/average quality ones, as the reference point changes. Right now, our stock of condos in the central region is mostly comprised of older, 60s to 90s buildings, with very feel amenities, if any at all. This means that buildings that are pretty much average, or slight above average, on most markets similar do Edmonton in North America, are being sold as luxury condos here. As they become the norm, or at least more common (and their prices drop given the lackluster demand, given current prices), I can easily see demand rising, especially as we begin to see more family oriented units (3bdrm and townhomes).

4 - Part of the low demand can be explained by the current lack of amenities in the area. We're still waiting for a grocery store in the core (soon to be corrected) and we need at least one hardware store, to say the least, we also need entertainment that isn't pubs or oilers games (a Rec Room would do wonders for DT). If I need to drive 5-10 blocks to buy groceries, 15 minutes to buy nails to hang paintings or half an hour to a movie theatre or any entertainment , then living in the core is less convenient than it should, as much as I might enjoy the lifestyle, and that will push me towards other places: either condos/apartments in Oliver or houses if I really want a condo (my case) or a house in a soulless wasteland we like to call residential suburbs. People who choose to live DT will be looking for convenience, and I'd bet a good amount of money that there will be much more demand once we start providing such amenities.

We also need to have EPS and the CoE to work on safety and upkeep, although this is a problem much bigger and that also affects businesses and rentals.

The current lack of demand for condos in Edmonton is much less related to the lack of people preferring condos do houses, and much more related to the overpriced units and lack of amenities (both in the buildings and in the area). We'll only be able to assess the actual balance of demand between condos and houses once we have more condos entering the market competitively, either with higher quality of lower prices.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying here. With respect to another aspect that hurts downtown condo sales in relation to a comparable city like Calgary is the the multiple employment centres in Edmonton. I have lived centrally my entire adult life (grew up in the burbs like many in Edmonton) and am a big supporter of it. But I have many friends who would work downtown in other cities for their jobs but in Edmonton their businesses are located in various locations limiting the requirement to live very centrally.
 
Holt Renfrew, Canada's luxury department store, will never come back to the fastest growing, second-most wealthy city in the country, soon to hit 1.7 million population and on its way to 2 mil? Never? I don't think they'll be able to stay away for long, unless they are planning to go bankrupt... Did you say that you were a booster for Edmonton? It sure sounds like you are a bit of a downer on the city.
An upscale department store going bankrupt ... in Canada ... unheard of! But, seriously, just because they are an long time, established upscale retailer does not mean they made a good decision here.

Upscale retailers that contract from a number of markets do tend eventually go out of business in my observation. If they couldn't make the Edmonton market work for them, I think it says something about their abilities. It is as you noted, a fast growing city with a high disposable income.

They desperately needed to remodel their store here and had a number of opportunities to move to a nicer/bigger location, but just hunkered down and let it stagnate. It might of been nice in the 80's, but by 2020 it seemed like a stuff, pretentious bunker.
 
1 - Having good amenities does not necessarily mean luxury. To my view, Edmonton has barely any luxury condos, even those who position themselves as such. I'd say maybe the JW Residences, the Pearl and MAYBE a handful of other buildings scattered between Grandin, Oliver and Downtown. What we have are overpriced good quality condos and a terrible mismatch between the offered quality, prices and demand, which keeps propelling people who could be interested in condos to buy houses in greenfield developments.

2 - There are a few condos proposed and/or expected in DT, for 2022. This include some developments that have been approved or proposed before the pandemic, like the Hudson, and some we already know are happening, like The Parks. There is also hope that the Tower BG will break ground, or at least a timeframe will be announced.

3 - Tying on point 1: as more developments, with higher quality get built, there is a tendency that the price points lower for the lower/average quality ones, as the reference point changes. Right now, our stock of condos in the central region is mostly comprised of older, 60s to 90s buildings, with very feel amenities, if any at all. This means that buildings that are pretty much average, or slight above average, on most markets similar do Edmonton in North America, are being sold as luxury condos here. As they become the norm, or at least more common (and their prices drop given the lackluster demand, given current prices), I can easily see demand rising, especially as we begin to see more family oriented units (3bdrm and townhomes).

4 - Part of the low demand can be explained by the current lack of amenities in the area. We're still waiting for a grocery store in the core (soon to be corrected) and we need at least one hardware store, to say the least, we also need entertainment that isn't pubs or oilers games (a Rec Room would do wonders for DT). If I need to drive 5-10 blocks to buy groceries, 15 minutes to buy nails to hang paintings or half an hour to a movie theatre or any entertainment , then living in the core is less convenient than it should, as much as I might enjoy the lifestyle, and that will push me towards other places: either condos/apartments in Oliver or houses if I really want a condo (my case) or a house in a soulless wasteland we like to call residential suburbs. People who choose to live DT will be looking for convenience, and I'd bet a good amount of money that there will be much more demand once we start providing such amenities.

We also need to have EPS and the CoE to work on safety and upkeep, although this is a problem much bigger and that also affects businesses and rentals.

The current lack of demand for condos in Edmonton is much less related to the lack of people preferring condos do houses, and much more related to the overpriced units and lack of amenities (both in the buildings and in the area). We'll only be able to assess the actual balance of demand between condos and houses once we have more condos entering the market competitively, either with higher quality of lower prices.
I think point 4 is particularly important. The amenities are not just in the building itself, but in the surrounding area. People who live downtown want a downtown lifestyle. If they can't have that, then what is the point. If they have to drive to Unity Square or Kingsway Mall to shop for most things, then what really is the point of being downtown? Paying more so you can walking by a number of vacant store fronts is not a selling point for anyone.

The lack and decline of retail downtown in this city has reached a point where it is discouraging people who would otherwise want to live downtown from moving there. It is worse now than it was in the mid 1980's and that was a terrible time for downtown.
 

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