Arc Smart Fare System

[superelevation]

I know one area that makes it more complicated is the regional aspect of this. There's seven participating municipalities I believe, and each one has their own local + commuter fare structures. So the system needs to be able to dynamically calculate a lot of different fares for you if you're travelling throughout the region, and my friend who works as a transit planner in the region says it's really complicated under the hood. I don't know whether it's contributing to the problems they're facing though.

Yeah but this exists in most cities. Many to a MUCH larger extent.

The software side can be tricky, but wholly solvable since they aren't integrating with existing legacy payment systems. They are building from scratch.

The biggest issues in my opinion are with the hardware. It takes too long to scan the card, if you tap immediately after someone else it might not recognize the card at all. Which is a shame because the hardware is also the hardest part to fix.

Indeed, the unique mix of software and hardware platforms are often where the issues lie.

 

[quit]

The software side can be tricky, but wholly solvable since they aren't integrating with existing legacy payment systems. They are building from scratch.

The biggest issues in my opinion are with the hardware. It takes too long to scan the card, if you tap immediately after someone else it might not recognize the card at all. Which is a shame because the hardware is also the hardest part to fix.

Are they building from scratch? I thought they were locked in with a vendor, which may be part of the delays.

 

[CplKlinger]

During my tour of the Valley Line, the City of Edmonton folks said that the hope is for Arc's adult fare to launch at the same time as the Valley Line. But they aren't affiliated with the Arc team so they could not say how likely that is.

 

[CplKlinger]

So only 1 single smart card reader?

I'm hoping there's going to be a few more of those, especially with pedestrian traffic coming down from the street and existing pedways

It's been disappointing to see how few readers have been installed at the LRT stations so far. McKernan only has two sets, Corona only has a handful, etc. And their placement is often horrible. It wouldn't be as terrible if the pillar with two readers were right by entrance at a place like McKernan, or in the centre of the area at the top of the escalators at a station like Corona. But instead, they're either further along the platform, or off to the side of the room, meaning the vast majority of people need to go out of their way to use it.

 

[IanO]

Y'all wanna have coffee at those? tap, move on.

 

[CplKlinger]

tap, move on.

Sure, I can tap my card. But oh wait, I'm getting out of the front car, and the only scanner is halfway down the platform  behind me.

Like honestly, it's such a simple thing that can make a huge difference in the user experience. I'm just saying they should be placed in spots that help mask their relative scarcity. I'm not asking for friggin planters and benches beside each one. If anything, I just want to move on faster.

 

[The_Cat]

I wonder if some transit stations will have mobile scanners at peak hours.

 

[mcr]

Sure, I can tap my card. But oh wait, I'm getting out of the front car, and the only scanner is halfway down the platform  behind me.

Like honestly, it's such a simple thing that can make a huge difference in the user experience. I'm just saying they should be placed in spots that help mask their relative scarcity. I'm not asking for friggin planters and benches beside each one. If anything, I just want to move on faster.

Exactly this. Any city with a successful smart card system makes it easy. There should be at least one scanner at every single entrance / exit to the platform. Full stop, if you have to go out of your way to scan out, you're already handcuffing your system from day 1.

 

[JuliallThat]

Like even if you don't have actual fare gates, you've got to at least put multiple tappers next to the entrance and exit - so you can tap on your way in and out without a detour. Though really it would've been the perfect time to put in fare gates - as they did in Vancouver when they brought in their tap cards.

 

[EdwardEdm]

So only 1 single smart card reader?

I'm hoping there's going to be a few more of those, especially with pedestrian traffic coming down from the street and existing pedways

At Churchill on the concourse level? Way more than 1. It's just only 1 visible in that pic.

 

[EdwardEdm]

It's been disappointing to see how few readers have been installed at the LRT stations so far. McKernan only has two sets, Corona only has a handful, etc. And their placement is often horrible. It wouldn't be as terrible if the pillar with two readers were right by entrance at a place like McKernan, or in the centre of the area at the top of the escalators at a station like Corona. But instead, they're either further along the platform, or off to the side of the room, meaning the vast majority of people need to go out of their way to use it.

McKernan/ Belgravia is a very low use station. Do you think it needs more?
I imagine that as Arc rolls out further and paper tickets get discontinued, the ticket validator pedestals will be changed to card readers.
Now which ones are you talking about being out of the way? VLSE LRT? That maybe so, I haven't looked yet in detail where the card readers will be, but I haven't seen any card readers installed yet, only the Arc vending machines, so it might be a bit premature to complain about VLSE LRT card reader placement.

On the rest of the existing LRT line I have no complaints about card reader placement and I am assuming more will be installed.

Any concerns about crowding for tapping could be contingent upon if tapping off is retained. I could see that being eliminated except for cross municipal boarder travel.

 

[CplKlinger]

Do you think it needs more?

As I previously stated, I understand why it is not possible for them to be rolled out in greater numbers; what I do want is smarter placement. If they can only spare one set of scanners for one half of the station, then they should put it by the entrance instead of halfway down where lots of people won't be passing by. That's just common sense design in my opinion.

I imagine that as Arc rolls out further and paper tickets get discontinued, the ticket validator pedestals will be changed to card readers.

There are already "blank" pedestals at some stations, including two at McKernan/Belgravia (iirc there's one on the platform near the south entrance and another inside the shelter beside the old fare vending machine).

Now which ones are you talking about being out of the way? VLSE LRT?

On the rest of the existing LRT line I have no complaints about card reader placement and I am assuming more will be installed.

Any concerns about crowding for tapping could be contingent upon if tapping off is retained. I could see that being eliminated except for cross municipal boarder travel.

Nope, I'm talking about the Capital Line to be precise. The other station I named is Corona, here's a shot I took today to show what I mean. They clearly only had one set to work with for that side, and yet chose to put it in a spot that is out of the way for many riders.

Is it minor, in the grand scheme of things? Sure, I never claimed otherwise. But as I said before, this is about making little improvements that are easy to do, and improve the overall experience for riders. Looking at that pic, I see what you mean about repurposing the validator pedestals, and I do like that idea. But until then, the scanners could have instead been placed in the center of those blue tiles for ease of access for people coming from/going to all three sides.

On the rest of the existing LRT line I have no complaints about card reader placement and I am assuming more will be installed.

It's nice that you've had good experiences in your travels. In my case, these are stations I use (or used) on a regular basis as part of my daily commute, and that means every day I have to go just that much further out of my way. And remember, I'm the sort of person who's so excited for Arc that I literally wrote an entire Wikipedia article about it. Sure, maybe more will be installed down the road. But this pilot has already been pushed back by months; what does that bode for the extra scanners? McKernan has had those empty podiums for more than a year now, and VLSE still does not have its readers. So considering the crunch needed for VLSE, how long will the rest of the line wait for more readers? Months? A couple years? Even longer? I'm not upset about that in the slightest, but what does annoy me is that smart placement decisions could have negated most of the impact of this scanner shortage and yet weren't made in cases like I highlighted.

Any concerns about crowding for tapping could be contingent upon if tapping off is retained. I could see that being eliminated except for cross municipal boarder travel.

That was not one of the concerns I raised, but I still think you raise a good point here. I think part of it will depend on whether they still intend to roll out zone-based fares once Arc is all up and running. Depending on what boundaries/distances they define for the zones, they might want to hold off on changing the tap policy until they're ready for that, just to avoid causing too much confusion among riders? Or maybe they'd be fine removing tap-offs for the short-medium term.

This is getting off topic, so I'm moving this discussion.

 

[EdwardEdm]

As I previously stated, I understand why it is not possible for them to be rolled out in greater numbers; what I do want is smarter placement. If they can only spare one set of scanners for one half of the station, then they should put it by the entrance instead of halfway down where lots of people won't be passing by. That's just common sense design in my opinion.

Nope, I'm talking about the Capital Line to be precise. The other station I named is Corona, here's a shot I took today to show what I mean. They clearly only had one set to work with for that side, and yet chose to put it in a spot that is out of the way for many riders.
View attachment 408256
Is it minor, in the grand scheme of things? Sure, I never claimed otherwise. But as I said before, this is about making little improvements that are easy to do, and improve the overall experience for riders. Looking at that pic, I see what you mean about repurposing the validator pedestals, and I do like that idea. But until then, the scanners could have instead been placed in the center of those blue tiles for ease of access for people coming from/going to all three sides.


It's nice that you've had good experiences in your travels. In my case, these are stations I use (or used) on a regular basis as part of my daily commute, and that means every day I have to go just that much further out of my way. And remember, I'm the sort of person who's so excited for Arc that I literally wrote an entire Wikipedia article about it. Sure, maybe more will be installed down the road. But this pilot has already been pushed back by months; what does that bode for the extra scanners? McKernan has had those empty podiums for more than a year now, and VLSE still does not have its readers. So considering the crunch needed for VLSE, how long will the rest of the line wait for more readers? Months? A couple years? Even longer? I'm not upset about that in the slightest, but what does annoy me is that smart placement decisions could have negated most of the impact of this scanner shortage and yet weren't made in cases like I highlighted.

I use the other end of Corona and it's well placed there. I agree in your one example that it is less than optimal placement, but, I still standby every other station I have been in, placement has been fine. The only stations I haven't used recently are Coliseum, Bay, McEwan and your particular end of Corona. Stadiums aren't great, but they get a pass until the rebuild is done.
As you note, Arc rollout has been delayed. I don't know if it's a hardware shortage or not. I tend to think probably not. It seems to me they rolled out enough equipment to get the transition period started. I could see that once an Arc rollout is confirmed for adult users, we'll see ticket validators quickly drop to one per entrance if/ when the adult monthly passes sales are ended.

 

[CplKlinger]

I use the other end of Corona and it's well placed there. I agree in your one example that it is less than optimal placement, but, I still standby every other station I have been in, placement has been fine. The only stations I haven't used recently are Coliseum, Bay, McEwan and your particular end of Corona. Stadiums aren't great, but they get a pass until the rebuild is done.
As you note, Arc rollout has been delayed. I don't know if it's a hardware shortage or not. I tend to think probably not. It seems to me they rolled out enough equipment to get the transition period started. I could see that once an Arc rollout is confirmed for adult users, we'll see ticket validators quickly drop to one per entrance if/ when the adult monthly passes sales are ended.

It's interesting to know that the other end of Corona has better placement, I wonder if there are other stations we also had different experiences based on what entrances we used? Perhaps I was too pessimistic with my comments then, I honestly thought the problem was more widespread than it apparently is. Thanks for the dose of optimism here; I genuinely want Arc to succeed, so I'll take any reason to feel hopeful about it.

And yes, I agree that they have enough equipment for the transition phase. I thought that with supply chain issues (especially with chips), they might be facing some orfer delays; I can't imagine why else they'd put podiums up even though they weren't going to put machines there for at least another year.

If the placement issues I highlighted weren't present (come to think of it, the south half of Health Sceinces has similar issues to McKernan, dont know about the north half), I think they'd be in a near-perfect situation for the initial rollout. But, if the vast majority of stations have better equipment placement as you've said, and I'll assume that's true since I trust your judgment, I'll be content going a bit out of my way to tap at my usual stations, knowing it's an exception rather than the standard.

One more thing, just in case anyone is interested. I reached out to the head of the Arc program (about a few questions I had, not just this) a few months ago, and she said that it would be too expensive to relocate scanners since they'd need to redo a lot of the associated infrastructure too; she did flag it though, so that her team can watch out for similar feedback from pilot participants.

 

[EdwardEdm]

Examples from around the LRT:

Central East Concourse.


Churchill South Concourse- 1 more card reader which has a fence next to it. Commented by another person in another thread that there was only 1 reader at Churchill. Clearly, that's not the case. 2 pairs of readers, and no doubt more to come when the ticket validators are replaced. However, with the one reader partially blocked, right now this could be a bit less convenient.

Belvedere, first the original fare collection area with 2 readers replacing ticket validators, and the second image shows 2 more readers that were added in approaching from the bus terminal side. There are 2 more readers that were added on the side coming from the main park and ride lot.


Additional readers added in on surface level entrance.


Grandin north concourse. Lots of readers for a quieter station.