Owning versus renting

[IanO]

That's quite the assumption/presumption and while an issue in many buildings, a bit of broad stroke.

Our board has a CA, contractor and PM, along with other skillsets. Not saying that we still struggle at times, but feel like it is competent.

However, I will agree that there needs to be more rigour and training for boards/members.

 

[bodsbods9090]

That's quite the assumption/presumption and while an issue in many buildings, a bit of broad stroke.

Our board has a CA, contractor and PM, along with other skillsets. Not saying that we still struggle at times, but feel like it is competent.

However, I will agree that there needs to be more rigour and training for boards/members.

Right back at you.

I had a bad experience with the board we had an it soured me on owing a condo/townhouse again.

Broad assumption/presumption, I'd rather be in control of what I do to the place I own then leave it in the hands of others.

 

[IanO]

Huh? I partially agreed with you in that some boards are certainly ill-equipped and that more training/support is needed.

Then get on the board. I've been volunteering on ours for more than 10 years because of what your fear is and so I involve myself. We have a functional board that is active and involved.

 

[bodsbods9090]

Sorry Ian. I was out of line.

My apologies.

 

[occidentalcapital]

You don't hear about all the successful repair and renewal tasks big and small that are successfully completed by condos every day. You really only hear about the one-off "horror story", so it skews overall perspective on condos.

 

[northlands]

Absolutely. IMO, it's a bit of an overblown boogeyman (not that it doesn't happen), but there is a fair amount of due diligence you can do prior to purchasing a condo to save yourself a lot of these headaches.

I'm a lot more on the page that condos in Edmonton are not good if you, like many, treat your real estate as an investment vehicle as well, rather than a basic need of human survival that you're ensuring. Assuming the market continues in any sort of similar way that it has for the past decade, it is essentially that if you plan to moveout of your condo within ~8 years, the transaction fees (on purchase & sale) + condo fees + interest paid on the mortgage vs the equity gain (and any appreciation??) probably doesn't get you a whole lot further than if you had just been renting the whole time.

And at least if you're renting, the life flexibility is so much higher. Selling condos is not a fast process here in AB unless you want to lose your butt badly, and being a landlord is not for everyone--especially those moving out of the city. Not a huge issue for those with big roots set here with family, kids, etc., but when you're young, that condo could be the difference between seizing a huge opportunity elsewhere that could result in huge financial/life gain or not.

Just some thoughts from a balcony...

 

[IanO]

For the average condo you are at 800-1500/month in mortgage payments, 250-500 in condo payments, 200-300+ in taxes, 20-50 in insurance = so call it 1300-2000/month all in.

*many assumptions here, I realize that.

You can get into a decent apartment in central Edmonton for 1200-1800 and while exposed to rental increases, sheltered from other expenses or the dreaded special assessment.

Put that 200 into something and you can do ok.

 

[Calfaer]

It definitely comes down to what you're willing to put up with. I've experienced renting, condo ownership, and home ownership, and based on my experience, home ownership has been my preference in Edmonton thus far.

For my condo, I have had some pretty rough experiences - special assessments, mismanagement, and incompetent/poorly trained board members. I joined the board for a couple of years to sort through the mess but it was like pulling teeth - none of the other board members seemed to care too much. There was little interest in finding proper value for contractors/repairs, things would move at a glacial pace and it took considerable effort to get everyone to agree on a decision, and the amount of time to attend meetings and review finances and minutes is not for most people. We did somehow get it to a fairly decent place, but I had to step away from it for my mental health. It's not an appealing thing to involve yourself in. I can imagine if you have a mostly competent board that cares about what you're spending money on, that would be pretty nice. Plus, owning a condo/apartment in Edmonton is not nearly as appealing as many other parts of the world. Most decent condos are simply priced too high for what you're getting compared to detached homes. But that's just going to lead me into a rant on "the missing middle" so I'll refrain...

That said, despite all that, I do still like the idea (on paper, at least) about self-managed shared housing and having the maintenance generally taken care of. It definitely requires much more support and training for board members, and arguably some more regulation. It really feels like the wild west sometimes, particularly regarding accountability of poor management.

I've settled on a relatively newer semi-detached home for now, and although home maintenance is a pain, it's still generally more appealing than what I've had to deal with on condos. In the end, I get to decide what to do and get things done the way that I like. Maintenance on your furnace/hot water heater, yard, roof, attic/insulation, pipes, etc. can be intimidating to deal with, but most issues are something a homeowner can generally DIY. There is also just the psychological component of ownership that only you are the one responsible for the work, which makes you care more.

That said, I somewhat miss renting sometimes. Things can generally be simpler (dependent on the landlord). Pay your rent, let the landlord deal with issues haha. Shoddy landlords/management companies are again the main issue with this issue. And the psychological component of not owning makes you feel slightly disconnected from your living space since you feel that it's not really yours. When I was renting, I would always hold off buying nicer things since I generally wanted to be more flexible in looking for something better.

 

[mcr]

Do you have to live in a hotel room for a couple of weeks because a pipe burst in the unit above you when you own a house?

I am grateful it has not happened to me yet but in the 4 years in my condo, I've seen trades in the building cleaning up flooded floors a handful of times and it always scares me that my time will come. I have a friend that's still dealing with repairs in his unit months after a resident above him had a pipe burst. Also know a guy who had pipes burst in his unit and caused residents three floors down to have to deal with repairs. These are all different buildings, built in the past 5 years.

@IanO you also bring up a good point about dealing with upgrades 'after 25 years'. My purchase was brand new unbuilt, have already had a minor special assessment, and now dealing with another possible assessment that is being worked on to be put through an increase in condo fees instead.

As I said, headaches that I just feel would be less annoying when you have more control over.

I see benefits to both sides of this argument. I rented for a long time and now have owned a SFH for about 8 years.

As far as having to live in a hotel when a pipe bursts above you? Well that happens with a SFH too. 3 years ago I had to spend a week in a hotel because my sewer line collapsed (so I had no wastewater, so essentially couldn't stay in the house). Thanks to being the owner, and it being aging pipes (so no insurance coverage), I not only had to leave the house but also spend $10,000 ripping up the finished basement floor / slab and fixing the pipes. Those are the times when renting would be waaaay nicer. You have the headache still, yes, but less financial risk.

When the market picks up and I end up selling this house, I can tell you I'm looking long and hard at going back to renting for a while just for lack of major financial headaches.

 

[ChazYEG]

Maintenance on your furnace/hot water heater, yard, roof, attic/insulation, pipes, etc. can be intimidating to deal with, but most issues are something a homeowner can generally DIY. There is also just the psychological component of ownership that only you are the one responsible for the work, which makes you care more.

My personal case is: I might be able to, I just loathe the idea of doing so. The day you see me willing to pick up a tool kit and waste a whole weekend of my life fixing something in a house, you can just go ahead and send me to a mental institution. I also know I'd kill myself with a shot between the ears if I ever need to live in a SFH, in any residential neighborhood.

Each to their own, but I simply can't stand how dead and quiet and away from any sign of life and civilization it is... Having to drive absolutely everywhere, the sea of grass lawns and passive parks... Miles and miles of roads, cars, lawns, houses, but no sign of human beings except for the odd dog walker... The idea of living in such a place gives me severe anxiety. This is the reason why I'm not simply looking for a condo, but I want a downtown or downtown adjacent condo.

As for the "freedom" the rental gives you, there are also some limitations that you need to put up with... You're never gonna get the finishes you want, the appliances you want, no changing cabinetry... You're essentially tied up in someone's taste, which will NEVER be quite the same as yours. Want to have custom cabinets, closets or a fully customized home office? Not in a rental.
want to change the layout of a space, tear down a wall, put one up? Nope, not in a rental...

I can be very particular about what I want my home to look like, and as much as some changes might need condo board approval, most of them are still your decision to make.

 

[crisp]

I see benefits to both sides of this argument. I rented for a long time and now have owned a SFH for about 8 years.

As far as having to live in a hotel when a pipe bursts above you? Well that happens with a SFH too. 3 years ago I had to spend a week in a hotel because my sewer line collapsed (so I had no wastewater, so essentially couldn't stay in the house). Thanks to being the owner, and it being aging pipes (so no insurance coverage), I not only had to leave the house but also spend $10,000 ripping up the finished basement floor / slab and fixing the pipes. Those are the times when renting would be waaaay nicer. You have the headache still, yes, but less financial risk.

When the market picks up and I end up selling this house, I can tell you I'm looking long and hard at going back to renting for a while just for lack of major financial headaches.

You missed my whole point though, major issues with condos happen in new buildings more often than issues with a new SFH. Your issue was with aging pipes, and I assume it didn't feel as frustrating knowing that you bought into possible aging problems as opposed to having to deal with problems in a brand new shiny home.

The larger the infrastructure, the higher the chances of deficiencies to occur.

 

[crisp]

As for the "freedom" the rental gives you, there are also some limitations that you need to put up with... You're never gonna get the finishes you want, the appliances you want, no changing cabinetry... You're essentially tied up in someone's taste, which will NEVER be quite the same as yours. Want to have custom cabinets, closets or a fully customized home office? Not in a rental.
want to change the layout of a space, tear down a wall, put one up? Nope, not in a rental...

This is very true and something I do enjoy as well.

I'll refine my opinion on condo purchase a little more.... I would not buy into an unbuilt development again.

 

[ChazYEG]

This is very true and something I do enjoy as well.

I'll refine my opinion on condo purchase a little more.... I would not buy into an unbuilt development again.

I can totally understand this! Buying into something established gives you the chance to do your due diligence on the condo board, maintenance and the general quality of the build.

My exception would be if I were to buy from a developer with a long history of stellar projects and a reputation of delivering the best quality building possible. The condo board is manageable, especially if you're in it from the beginning (and make your living out of managing CEO's egos...).

 

[ChazYEG]

You missed my whole point though, major issues with condos happen in new buildings more often than issues with a new SFH. Your issue was with aging pipes, and I assume it didn't feel as frustrating knowing that you bought into possible aging problems as opposed to having to deal with problems in a brand new shiny home.

The larger the infrastructure, the higher the chances of deficiencies to occur.

I'd counter that with the fact that not everything comes down to short term issues. In the long run, the cost (both in time and money) can be dramatically higher for a SFH.

Again, I'll come back to the point that, even if you can, why would you want to waste precious time with your family and friends, time you could spend on leisure or simply resting, fixing stuff in your house?

In order to keep costs low enough to be worth it, versus a condo, in the long run, you'd have to put in several hours a week, on average, just doing basic stuff, like shoveling snow, mowing lawns, fixing the odd thing here and there... not to mention whole days or weekends doing major fixes every once in a while. If I spent as much time as I'd do with these things working, I'd make at least 3x more money than I'm saving by doing them, and getting less tired.

If someone is like me, who gets ABSOLUTELY NO PLEASURE in doing these things, and would just see this as a big waste of time (and money), there's no clear advantage to owning a SFH.

 

[Calfaer]

My personal case is: I might be able to, I just loathe the idea of doing so. The day you see me willing to pick up a tool kit and waste a whole weekend of my life fixing something in a house, you can just go ahead and send me to a mental institution. I also know I'd kill myself with a shot between the ears if I ever need to live in a SFH, in any residential neighborhood.

Each to their own, but I simply can't stand how dead and quiet and away from any sign of life and civilization it is... Having to drive absolutely everywhere, the sea of grass lawns and passive parks... Miles and miles of roads, cars, lawns, houses, but no sign of human beings except for the odd dog walker... The idea of living in such a place gives me severe anxiety. This is the reason why I'm not simply looking for a condo, but I want a downtown or downtown adjacent condo.

I definitely agree with you on the wasting a whole weekend fixing something, it's frustrating and a big downside to owning a house.

However, I do dislike the idea that it HAS to be either a small condo in a tower or a suburban car-dependent hellscape 40 minutes away from the city center. Car-dependent suburbs similarly fill me with negative feelings, primarily anger haha. Horrific cookie cutter homes, driveways, huge winding roads, and soulless areas devoid of any life or culture. I settled on something somewhat in the middle for my price range - a duplex in a mature neighbourhood that has several bus stops within a 2-5 minute walk, nearby cycling infrastructure, decent walkability and some commercial stores on the perimeters of the road. Roughly 10 minute drive/20 minute bike road to the city center. Not perfect, but better.

Suburbs don't have to be completely awful (and they weren't always). It's endemic to North America, but at some point, they decided having nice things shouldn't be allowed (like mixed use developments, dense housing, walkability) and made everything sprawling car-dependent messes with primarily R1 SFH zoning. It does make me appreciate some of the efforts that Edmonton is doing to try and densify (re-zoning efforts, infill, Blatchford) and add less car focused infrastructure starting from the city center outward. More housing options rather than the two above extremes would make owning more appealing to a wider range of people.