Gronk!
Senior Member
Here's the CBC story
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LRT Safety
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David A
Senior Member
That chart is really not good. It looks like we started in a similar place to Calgary and Toronto, but it increased a lot more here and hasn't come back down much.
Also worse here than Vancouver and Winnipeg. Something is wrong here that still needs a lot more effort and attention to deal with and improve.
ChazYEG
Senior Member
We all know what the issues are, and the many different solutions possible for this issue.
I will die on the hill that we should have fare gates, and I do not buy into the argument that it is too expensive. I honestly believe that the amount of money lost on fare evasion that would be recovered by doing this, plus the increase in ridership that would come from the increased safety (and even more so the perception of safety) would pay for that withing a couple of years. Fare gates create a safe space inside stations and the effects and ramifications of this are many. Does it address the root of the issue? Definitely not, but does offer a solution to deal with the immediate problem. Right now, regular, paying users (and even non-users, considering that everyone's tax dollars are used to provide transit, as it should be) are the ones bearing the brunt of the burden created by all the crime and disorder in the system, while we insist that the honour system still works nowadays because it it in the 1980s and we don't wanna change it. Big city problems require big city solutions.
I just think about how in São Paulo, a 30M+ people macrometropolis in a developing country with substantially higher social disorder and crime rates than anywhere in Canada, where subway stations reach some of the most dangerous neighbourhoods in South America (and likely the world), the subway system is so safe that even the police recommends that if you feel unsafe at any point, head to a subway station and get past the fare gates if you can.
It also wouldn't hurt to have permanent police presence in some stations, especially all the Downtown ones, as well as University, Stadium, Coliseum, Southgate and Century Park. Just have a pair of cops patrolling the station, before fare gates, throughout the day. Many cities around the world do that in stations/stops that are known for being unsafe/problematic. I've seen it in NYC, Sao Paulo, Mexico City, Madrid, Chicago. Add some dedicated Peace Officers to ride the system , from end to end, through the day, and I bet we'd see crime drop down to near zero and an immediate change in the perception of safety, not only of the LRT but of Downtown, as well. Imagine being Downtown and KNOWING that if you have any sort of scare or issue, you can just walk into an LRT station and find Police assistance. Or that if you call them, there are gonna be police officers within a couple of minutes or less from you. Ostensive policing is a big thing in many places for a reason, and I fail to understand why is it that we can't seem to crack the code for this in Edmonton.
Tackling the immediate problem would also give a lot more grace, and time, for the other agents needed to solve the underlying issues to address it, because it could help public perception (especially from those who live isolated in their bubbles, generally in the suburbs) that we are not "soft" on crime, which in turn makes it easier for these people to swallow proper social assistance programs for those they perceive as victims (since we're being "tough" on the bad apples).
ADob
Active Member
I admit I am stumped by all the studies showing that fare gates don't do anything. It seems weird and counterintuitive to me. I will admit that I haven't taken a deep dive into the issue. If it's just a question of cost and recouping it within a certain amount of time, that's fair, but yeah, it seems like an obvious solution.
David A
Senior Member
I am skeptical about such studies too, maybe different time, different place, different issues. Whatever has been done so far does not seem to be making enough of a dent in the problems, so perhaps time to stop dithering about this.
CplKlinger
Senior Member
Off topic, but in yesterday's council meeting administration said that the first 15 (of 30) new TPOs are graduating tomorrow and will start their first shifts next week (teamed up with field training officers). The next 15 will start in or around June.
thommyjo
Senior Member
This has been debated a lot here, but fare gates simply don't do enough for our system based on the design. We can't close off the pedways with fare gates, but half the problems are pedways/stairwells, not platforms. And many stations aren't even capable of conversion to have fare gates that enclose them.
I honestly think the only solution is proper policing/security, treating our system as a 0 tolerance for disorder, the same way you'd treat city hall, an elementary school. Police in most stations, working together, ensuring no one one drugs, with weapons, or loitering is in the stations. Helping to direct people, answer questions, and improve the "customer experience". The issue with EPS is they have no sense of ownership and most police openly mock and look down on transit and its users...
I honestly think the only solution is proper policing/security, treating our system as a 0 tolerance for disorder, the same way you'd treat city hall, an elementary school. Police in most stations, working together, ensuring no one one drugs, with weapons, or loitering is in the stations. Helping to direct people, answer questions, and improve the "customer experience". The issue with EPS is they have no sense of ownership and most police openly mock and look down on transit and its users...
David A
Senior Member
In order for our pedway system to be of any use or benefit, it needs to remain somewhat open and accessible. You can not turn it into a post security area of an airport like what has been done with some government buildings.
So I really doubt this general zero tolerance approach, which hasn't happened so far in the last several years will suddenly happen now, the whole area is too big with too many access points to even do this effectively.
However, access to the paid fare area can be more restricted. Just because we can't solve half of the problems doesn't mean we can't do something about the other half and no doubt users feel much more vulnerable while waiting on a platform or on transit, rather than in a pedway or stairwell where they can either move more quickly through or avoid and take another route if necessary.
So I really doubt this general zero tolerance approach, which hasn't happened so far in the last several years will suddenly happen now, the whole area is too big with too many access points to even do this effectively.
However, access to the paid fare area can be more restricted. Just because we can't solve half of the problems doesn't mean we can't do something about the other half and no doubt users feel much more vulnerable while waiting on a platform or on transit, rather than in a pedway or stairwell where they can either move more quickly through or avoid and take another route if necessary.
ChazYEG
Senior Member
That is debatable. The most problematic stations are the underground/DT ones, which is also where most of the people who cause issues board initially. Having fare gates in those alone would already help a lot, although it would not be impossible to adapt the whole system for it. Lots of places have open air stops/stations and still have fare gates. The benefits of it out weight the costs, IMO, especially when we consider the potential for increased revenue from higher ridership.
And even in the downtown ones, with the pedways and whatnot, it is far easier to police things if their movement around the station is limited by not being able to use the platform as a way to circulate. Additionally, fare gates can be put fairly close to the entrances, which would reduce the area where people can loiter by A LOT.
thommyjo
Senior Member
I'm just not sure how you'd set them up. Do you use the train regularly and have certain areas in mind? Most of the issues I have on the train are the stairways, walkways/pedways, and areas outside of anywhere you'd have fare gates enclosing. And maybe it'd slightly decrease issues on the trains, but if all the NE stations remain accessible...that's not stopping much.
Platinum107
Senior Member
In the underground stations the easy solution is obvious imo: You put the faregates in front of the stairs/escalators leading to and from the platforms. Stations like Southgate and Century Park could also have faregates at the pedway entrances. Others like Mckernan Belgravia, all Valley Line stops (elevated stations could have them) and newer high-floor stations will be more difficult or even impossible unfortunately unless major renovations are done.
IanO
Superstar
The biggest issues and consistently problematic are the spaces from the top of the UG entrances to the stations.
They added doors to these a few years ago for pressurization (I believe) reasons and should be taken off immediately and addressed another way.
I call Transit Watch multiple times a week about these spaces.
They added doors to these a few years ago for pressurization (I believe) reasons and should be taken off immediately and addressed another way.
I call Transit Watch multiple times a week about these spaces.
MacLac
Senior Member
I'm sure every city reports a transit "crime" differently.....it's probably just a case of apples to oranges.......all it takes is 1 young, inexperienced, rookie transit cop to skew the stats for the entire city on "inaccurate" reporting.....
thommyjo
Senior Member
Do you usually run into problems after or before those though? The piss, needles, slumped over people, knives, etc are usually between street entrances and the platform stairs/escalators. Fare gates don’t fix that.
Like it’s great for the train to be safer. But the methhead screaming in the narrow stairwell will still deter most people…
ADob
Active Member
And those stairways are tight and dark, i.e., perfect for doing criminal things. If I had to take the train regularly, I'd definitely get out at the most open staircase, not the one closest to my place. Personally I'm so over these asshats that my fear would be me getting yelly at them and it ending badly.