LRT Expansion Planning

[_Citizen_Dane_]

Yah, I remember they mentioned they weren't even sure the top deck could handle full LRT use as is. Does anyone know if the city has an official EOL date in mind for High Level?

It underwent rehabilitation in 1995, a year after the City took possession of it from the C.P.R. That work’s done a good job. The Railway never took care of the Bridge as well as they should've and under their watch its main trusses lost some forty percent of their width due to corrosion. Since the City's work they've only lost five. According to the Centre L.R.T. Line study done by Stantec, that's extended its life to 2045 at minimum.

As I've mentioned elsewhere though, the Bridge's designation as a Municipal Historic Resource puts it in a really weird spot. How do you repair it? How do you replace sections? Can you replace sections? Can you replace the whole bridge? As its bylaw states, "no part of the structure... shall be removed, destroyed, disturbed, altered, rehabilitated, repaired , or otherwise permanently affected without the approval of the General Manager of the Planning and Development Department." Now, if the Bridge's condition got so bad it needed a complete replacement, then I suppose it could be done — the Arlington and Gem Theatre both had their designations rescinded when it was clear they were utterly unsalvageable. Doing that on something still within its useful life though opens the sluice gates and almost nullifies the whole designation program and the legal protection that's enshrined within it for historic sites.

 

[archited]

^^^^ Where there's a will there's a way -- unfortunately with the current administration there is no will. Maybe "touch the water" could shift some of their funds in this direction before the major portion of the bridge ends up "touching the water". That would be a far more useful expenditure than the mini-muni plans that are creating non-excitement.

 

[ION]

I honestly think this is gonna take a huge public push/petition/campaign to get the High Level bridge the attention it needs to get the work it needs done. Personally my rebuild/fix criteria would be to add SOME limited road capacity and then to make sure there are at least 3-4 potential tracks available for streetcar/LRT/Regional and HSR rail that may use the line in the future... Not to mention a push for a central transfer point for all these activities... I.e. The "Great" Grandin Station... In my dreams it has a traditional stone front similar to the Bowker and Leglislature facades across the street topped with a huge glass canopy roof that stretches for at least 2 city blocks like the huge skylight roof of The Core mall in Calgary... Plus an iconic tower or two... Almost every major rail hub station has one near it... London Bridge Station and London Shard... Grand Central and well... the plethora of towers built and proposed next to it, Hudson Yards, Penn Station, etc. Yes the market for offices is crap now and probably for a while, however there will always be a market for clean, safe, secure modern office space even if it looks vastly different from the model we have now...

 

[Platinum107]

I was gonna respond to @CplKlinger in the ERRS thread with this but I think putting it here would be more appropriate.

Here's my theory: The current "build-out" plan with the three lines and 5 "spokes" coming out of downtown will definitely not be the end of the line, so to speak. I believe that within this decade the city will do something similar to what Seattle has done with the planning of it's future LRT network, separating it into major "phases" of projects. For example, the current plan would be "phase one" which would eventually lead into a phase two and maybe even phase three plan for further additions onto the network. IMO, the next potential phases will focus on building up the network within the city by adding new crosstown lines and lines that cover more of the central area of the city. Who knows, maybe for some lines they may not even use LRT technology but automated light metro or heavy rail where necessary .

If you are interested, here's the link to the map I made outlining my personal ideas for the network : Edmonton's Grand LRT: Past, Present, Future and Imaginary! - Google My Maps

 

[CplKlinger]

I was gonna respond to @CplKlinger in the ERRS thread with this but I think putting it here would be more appropriate.

Here's my theory: The current "build-out" plan with the three lines and 5 "spokes" coming out of downtown will definitely not be the end of the line, so to speak. I believe that within this decade the city will do something similar to what Seattle has done with the planning of it's future LRT network, separating it into major "phases" of projects. For example, the current plan would be "phase one" which would eventually lead into a phase two and maybe even phase three plan for further additions onto the network. IMO, the next potential phases will focus on building up the network within the city by adding new crosstown lines and lines that cover more of the central area of the city. Who knows, maybe for some lines they may not even use LRT technology but automated light metro or heavy rail where necessary .

If you are interested, here's the link to the map I made outlining my personal ideas for the network : Edmonton's Grand LRT: Past, Present, Future and Imaginary! - Google My Maps

That is an absolutely lovely vision, I certainly hope something like this happens! I recall hearing an article that pointed out how even electric vehicles aren't sustainable if too many people get them, just because of the materials needed to produce all of these vehicles. So, I don't put a lot of stock in the claims that autonomous vehicles will replace the need for LRTs, larger trains, and transit in general. Given that, I hope our city continues to think bodly and plan for the long-term with public transit and our LRT.

 

[archited]

There will be a commonality to it all -- eventually there will be vehicles for commuting, vehicles for pleasure, vehicles for mass transit, vehicles for personal transport -- eventually LRT will be outdated as will evey other form of transportation (much as history has already taught us). The future curve is pretty much unpredictable and those who think they know different are fooling themselves.

 

[CplKlinger]

There will be a commonality to it all -- eventually there will be vehicles for commuting, vehicles for pleasure, vehicles for mass transit, vehicles for personal transport -- eventually LRT will be outdated as will evey other form of transportation (much as history has already taught us). The future curve is pretty much unpredictable and those who think they know different are fooling themselves.

That's a fair point. I'm definitely not trying to claim that cars will every be outdated, or that the LRT is our only future; I just roll my eyes when someone argues that the LRT is a waste of money because "we'll all be using self driving taxies soon"

 

[archited]

^^^^ I'm not one who says that -- and the path carved out for LRT will quite likely serve the next iteration of mass transit -- probably some form of LSM-driven vehicles automated to the extent that they are all controlled from a central location and designed to be multifunctional -- express service plus station-to-station milk-run service plus emergency service. I would like to see ERR cars serving communities -- the "retro" aspect of these is more people-friendly IMO and more sustaining of smaller-scaled communities, binding them tightly together. I definitely won't miss the gas hogs, the noise-inducing one-rider hogs, and free-range hogs. The future is extremely bright if you allow yourself to envision a multitude of conveyances all working in concert to the best effect.

 

[TAS]

[/QUOTE]

... I believe that within this decade the city will do something similar to what Seattle has done with the planning of it's future LRT network, separating it into major "phases" of projects. For example, the current plan would be "phase one" which would eventually lead into a phase two and maybe even phase three plan for further additions onto the network.

I believe Calgary has opted for a phased approach to its Green Line but its first phase has been held up by the province because it doesn't connect to any existing line - which is why province is calling it the train to nowhere. I think it's about a 1.5k walk to the next closest downtown station and it wont be until phase two that it connects to existing line. So province has asked for a rethink on phase one.
I think the idea of phases or stages is good as long as it connects to some existing network. As well, as with Green Line, phasing it can potentially make budgeting more difficult because coming up with a final cost on the line may change significantly over time and when you get to phase three and are committed to the plan, changing costs may be a major issue beyond what was forecasted.

 

[The_Cat]

I think Calgary could have shuttles from the Green Line Terminus (Ramsay/Inglewood?) to Downtown. I also imagine that this stop is in close proximity to BRT.

 

[Platinum107]

@TAS The Green Line is an example of one specific project being built in phases, like the Valley Line in Edmonton also is. That isn't really what I'm talking about here though, what I'm talking about is a plan outlining multiple projects and updates to the system as a whole being implemented in phases. Individual projects would be built according to their own separate timelines but a general end point for the phase would exist somewhere down the line

This, the system buildout that has been approved, would be "Phase 1":

Future phases would add on to this map with multiple new lines, projects and updates to existing lines.

 

[Kosy123]

With all this talk of LRT expansion planning, I'm curious if there ever will be the possibility for Edmonton to have some form of radial/circular metro network that goes around the city rather than LRT lines which go straight through the centre of the city.

 

[Platinum107]

@Kosy123 I'm not sure a literal circle-shaped line would be in the cards for a long time yet. What I think will happen in the current scope are separate crosstown lines that link up lines across a certain sector of the city and maybe go a little further. In the Google My Map I made, A "south crosstown" and "north crosstown" line would accomplish this.

I do have a neat idea, though! Now just hear me out: The Henday has a lot of dead median space for most of its length, right? What if, just what if, A higher-speed (140-160kph) regional rail line was built in this median encircling the city? In my vision, there could potentially be 7 LRT lines and 1 Light Metro line that cross over or under the Henday, and new stations could be built or old ones moved to these crossing points to intersect and connect with the regional rail. Intermodal stations of regional rail, LRT, and busses allow people to have a super fast connection to the different sectors of the city and easy access to the transit lines that get them into the city. A few separate stations could be built at certain spots along with transit centres with good bus connections into the surrounding area. This is all just me imagining out loud, of course

Like I said at the top, something like this wouldn't be in the cards for a very long time most likely, but it's still fun for me to think about!

 

[The_Cat]

I'd like to see a city map overlaid with the LRT, High Frequency, Rapid and Crosstown Lines. This would give riders an idea how to get across the city using transit.

 

[Kosy123]

@Kosy123 I'm not sure a literal circle-shaped line would be in the cards for a long time yet. What I think will happen in the current scope are separate crosstown lines that link up lines across a certain sector of the city and maybe go a little further. In the Google My Map I made, A "south crosstown" and "north crosstown" line would accomplish this.

I do have a neat idea, though! Now just hear me out: The Henday has a lot of dead median space for most of its length, right? What if, just what if, A higher-speed (140-160kph) regional rail line was built in this median encircling the city? In my vision, there could potentially be 7 LRT lines and 1 Light Metro line that cross over or under the Henday, and new stations could be built or old ones moved to these crossing points to intersect and connect with the regional rail. Intermodal stations of regional rail, LRT, and busses allow people to have a super fast connection to the different sectors of the city and easy access to the transit lines that get them into the city. A few separate stations could be built at certain spots along with transit centres with good bus connections into the surrounding area. This is all just me imagining out loud, of course

Like I said at the top, something like this wouldn't be in the cards for a very long time most likely, but it's still fun for me to think about!

A circle shaped line probably would happen much after the crosstown ideas that you've had in your Google My Map! Unless the population suddenly tripled in the city in the span of 20 years! I am excited about the possibility of crosstown lines in the city but like you said, it wouldn't be in the cards for a long long time.