Valley Line LRT/ Valley Line West | ?m | ?s | City of Edmonton

[quit]

I really just don't see total false equivalencies as good points. I can see the perspective that the city should do something about the incidents, however the immediate finger pointing that always happens toward the city and its partners (transed) when for years the information on how this line will work has been available to the public is totally unjustified. It's typical for people in this city to always find someone other than drivers to blame. In 2021 there were 17,000 total car collisions including 16 fatalities and I really don't hear that much in calls for improving intersection and road design in this city, and certainly not from the pro-car people (because it'd probably involve making roads narrower and slowing people down); In 5 months there has been 6 or so crashes involving the train, none of them fatal, and none of them being the fault of the train and now the city is negligent, they should be blamed for poor driving, and more money should be spent because all of the intersections need to be completely reevaluated and redesigned. If someone can't balance paying attention to more than one thing while they're driving more than a ton of metal at high speeds, they absolutely should not be allowed to drive.

You give the general public way too much credit. There is a saying in political circles that goes something like always assume the public are idiots until they aren't. Is this a cynical way of thinking about things? Absolutely. It is true though. The wider public has received a two sided pamphlet in the mail so far so direct marketing - most people probably tossed in the trash. Behaviour takes time to change - if anything, more change management needs to take place.

I'm not saying it's squarely on the City, transed or drivers. It definitely doesn't need to be an either or argument nor should it be. Multiple factors and variables are at play - it can be both the fault of drivers, marketing or poor design.

As for being able to pay attention to multiple things, that more or less applies to all of humanity. Very few people can fully multitask more than a few variables. Sensory overload is real. Try to have a conversation about multiple topics at the same time and be engaged in each. Most people can't do it.

 

[northlands]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/city-seeks-approval-for-5m-extension-on-valley-line-southeast-lrt-consulting-contract-1.6797006

But wait, I thought the delays in construction weren't going to cost the city any money according to Sohi

Lol. Contractor screws up so bad that the City has to pay additional to extend the owner's engineer contract. The P3 contract probably somehow forbids it but the City should be able to sue TransEd for damages to recoup their $5m due to TransEd's negligence.

 

[archited]

No need for a lawsuit -- these kinds of things are covered by 'errors and omissions' insurance -- the recovery sums can be quite large..

 

[kcantor]

No need for a lawsuit -- these kinds of things are covered by 'errors and omissions' insurance -- the recovery sums can be quite large..

they are also large enough sums that the insurers will defend paying out quite aggressively even if they think they will ultimately lose (not that they will admit that). it can take many, many years for things to wend their way to a supreme court of canada decision. in the meantime, the money stays in their bank accounts. ask me how i know (even though we won).

 

[archited]

^^^^ Gotta feed those retained lawyers... it was more a comment that some go immediately to legal remedies as an unthinking knee-jerk reaction -- a panacea for all ills. Law courts are typically a no-win solution for all but the attorneys.

 

[David A]

If I was the city, I would be quite irked that I have to spend this $5 million because of the mess ups, apparently of others. However, I would hope something amicable could be worked out with TransEd regarding these costs.

Lawsuits can be expensive, time consuming and not always predictable. Likewise for TransEd, it may also be better to try work something out.

 

[Dubas]

One of the Tawatina south bridge piers has been free and clear of any wrap or scaffolding for quite some time. As of today it is wrapped up again and has a man-lift next to it; with some work being done on the connection between the top of the pier and the elevated track. Could be something, could be nothing. But didn’t look good.

 

[BASE]

One of the Tawatina south bridge piers has been free and clear of any wrap or scaffolding for quite some time. As of today it is wrapped up again and has a man-lift next to it; with some work being done on the connection between the top of the pier and the elevated track. Could be something, could be nothing. But didn’t look good.

I believe in one of the updates they mentioned some of the piers might need to be wrapped again to complete the agreed upon cosmetic work relating to the pier strengthening efforts. Not sure if this is the case for the one you speak of and sounds like it might be a different issue but something to consider if new wrapping pops up although no updates that I have seen on what has been decided.

 

[cliffapotamus]

One of the Tawatina south bridge piers has been free and clear of any wrap or scaffolding for quite some time. As of today it is wrapped up again and has a man-lift next to it; with some work being done on the connection between the top of the pier and the elevated track. Could be something, could be nothing. But didn’t look good.

Was it the pier at the South end of the bridge proper? where the wooden deck meets pavement? there's been water dripping down that pier since the melt started, from the joint between the bridge and the viaduct. it looked like a missing seal or clogged rainwater leader or something. Maybe that's getting fixed?
aside, there's drainage issues on some of the piers over Mill Creek by Davies as well. I think they underestimated how rough our freeze-thaw cycle is on drainage systems (see the drainage pipe sticking out of the shattered concrete on the Wellington Bridge lol)

 

[Dubas]

I believe in one of the updates they mentioned some of the piers might need to be wrapped again to complete the agreed upon cosmetic work relating to the pier strengthening efforts. Not sure if this is the case for the one you speak of and sounds like it might be a different issue but something to consider if new wrapping pops up although no updates that I have seen on what has been decided.

Definitely was not a cosmetic fix. Seemed more utility. Probably the drainage issue mentioned above.

 

[occidentalcapital]

Was it the pier at the South end of the bridge proper? where the wooden deck meets pavement? there's been water dripping down that pier since the melt started, from the joint between the bridge and the viaduct. it looked like a missing seal or clogged rainwater leader or something. Maybe that's getting fixed?
aside, there's drainage issues on some of the piers over Mill Creek by Davies as well. I think they underestimated how rough our freeze-thaw cycle is on drainage systems (see the drainage pipe sticking out of the shattered concrete on the Wellington Bridge lol)

I'm mystified as to how many engineering problems this line has. Just a lot of super junior engineers designing things?

 

[IanO]

It's becoming a bit of a calamity of errors, omissions and disregards.

Once again, I'd buy beer for someone to do a side-by-side comparison of say 10 KPIs or metrics with this P3 versus the last CEO delivered extension.

 

[Stevey_G]

The problem is seen in all sectors of construction. It’s a mixture of bad/overdesign, not conforming to designs where necessary, overregulation, inexperience, bad project coordination, focus (oftentimes to the point of nonsense and damage) on environmental and social liabilities, and lastly cost structuring.

Not every major project is the same but every large job I inspect these days does not have the necessary checks and balances in place to control these problems.

 

[Airboy]

Steve G I agree with you. With the fee structure we are seeing less oversite. Consulting fees have dropped so much that to break even you have to cut back on site services. When I started on the consulting side about 15 years ago I would be at a project site every 2 weeks, now I am lucky to get to some projects once a month. There is a real lack of experience out there as well. one of my responsibilities is to train your engineers in field work. how to act and what to watch for. My first year in Construction was 1980, I knew most engineers and contractors after a few years. You knew who did the best work and who to watch out for. There is a real thirst for the knowledge but no funds to spend the time to learn. I did have a young EIT tag along with us recently on a large industrial project. the EIT was employed by the contractor. By the end he was over whelmed by what he learned but his willingness to learn was a good sign.

With the problems on the Valleyline so glaring I do not believe we will see the same issues on the other lines. On projects this large P3 may not be the way to go. The liability is just to great to try to nickel and dime it.

Currently have a project that has an experienced owner. We are on site once a week. This project is currently slightly under budget and moving along great. We will even hand it over on time if not a week or 2 early. I may have a year or 2 left in the industry but loads of time to train and pass on knowledge.

 

[northlands]

The problem is seen in all sectors of construction. It’s a mixture of bad/overdesign, not conforming to designs where necessary, overregulation, inexperience, bad project coordination, focus (oftentimes to the point of nonsense and damage) on environmental and social liabilities, and lastly cost structuring.

Not every major project is the same but every large job I inspect these days does not have the necessary checks and balances in place to control these problems.

An ancient Chinese proverb once said: You get that on them big jobs.