Gronk!
Senior Member
This is Holland's final season as GM so it would be pointless to fire him.
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Edmonton Oilers
- Thread starter Gronk!
- Start date
This is Holland's final season as GM so it would be pointless to fire him.
kcantor
Senior Member
Since November 2014, Dustin Schwartz has been the Oilers goaltender coach for all of the following:
Richard Bachman
Matthew Berlin
Laurent Brassoit
Ilya Brysgalov
Tyler Bunz
Jack Campbell
Devon Dubnyk
Viktor Fasth
Jonas Gustavsson
Mikko Koskinen
Jason Labarbera
Al Montoya
Anders Nilsson
Calvin Pickard
Ben Scrivens
Stuart Skinner
Mike Smith
Anthony Stolarz
Cam Talbot
Richard Bachman
Matthew Berlin
Laurent Brassoit
Ilya Brysgalov
Tyler Bunz
Jack Campbell
Devon Dubnyk
Viktor Fasth
Jonas Gustavsson
Mikko Koskinen
Jason Labarbera
Al Montoya
Anders Nilsson
Calvin Pickard
Ben Scrivens
Stuart Skinner
Mike Smith
Anthony Stolarz
Cam Talbot
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scyeg
Active Member
He should not be allowed to make anymore moves for this team, so no, I disagree that it’s pointless. It’s even scarier that he’s retiring—nothing to lose.
edm13
New Member
Someone told Schwartz is married to a relative of sir Katz. Is that the only way to explain this madness?
scyeg
Active Member
Not true, just a dumb rumour someone started that spread rather quickly.
kcantor
Senior Member
down by 4 to carolina less than fifteen minutes into the first period on 13 shots…
it must be pretty obvious by now - if it wasn’t already - that this team’s problems aren’t/weren’t with the head coach.
it must be pretty obvious by now - if it wasn’t already - that this team’s problems aren’t/weren’t with the head coach.
erudyk_29
Active Member
I threw something together on cap friendly, it's sort of a quick mid-season retool to try to jumpstart this team:
Step 1: Ship out Campbell for a goalie who can (maybe) do something in net. Montembeault has had a solid start to the year and while he's no world beater, the Oilers don't need him to be, they just need him to make saves at a somewhat average rate, which he has done the last 2 seasons with Montreal.
The trade specifically looks like:
To Montreal:
- Jack Campbell (Edmonton retains 1.5 million)
- Ryan McCleod
To Edmonton:
- Samuel Montembeault
Not sure Montreal goes for this even with the retention as Campbell's contract is still a boat anchor, but they're getting a solid young centre who can maybe fill the spot of Kirby Dach while he's injured and be a solid middle-6 player for years to come
Step 2: Sign a right handed defenseman
I don't think the Oilers defense is really a massive issue, the goaltending amplifies every one of their mistakes. But, it's pretty clear to me the only reason Vincent Desharnais is playing in the NHL is because the Oilers don't have another righty and he's physical. So I decided to bring back an old friend, Ethan Bear, who is coming off an injury but during his time in Edmonton was a solid defenseman, who got traded because the fans overreacted to one bad play he made in the playoffs. He hasn't looked like himself since leaving and joining first Carolina and then Vancouver but hopefully he's recovered and can find his stride again. Either way he'll be better than Desharnais.
He's signed for league minimum for one year
Step 3: Sign someone who can give the offense a jolt
The Oilers offense looks slow and not confident it itself, so I'm bringing in Patrick Kane a cheap one year flyer in hopes of finding some of his old magic. He's nowhere near what he used to be but he was playing hurt for a long while and now has gotten surgery to fix that. Rumors last year were that the Oilers were one of his top destinations (probably not this year given their record) but that's why I gave him a little extra bonus money. I don't see anyone offering him more than this considering his injury and declining production with age. I think for a team like the Oilers he's a risk I'd be willing to take as a GM.
He's signed for 1.5 million for one year
I was very hesitant to give up any picks, especially not the first this year, as if this season continues to slip away it could be a top 10, or who knows maybe even a top 5 pick. This draft is not as deep as last year but there are some quality players that will be available outside the top 3. Ivan Demidov, Aaron Kiviharju, Berkly Catton and Artyom Levshunov come to mind. Who know's at this rate it could be the first, and the Oilers could miss out on Macklin Celebrini or Cole Eiserman.
Consider the Oilers (extremely) conservative buyers at this point
Step 1: Ship out Campbell for a goalie who can (maybe) do something in net. Montembeault has had a solid start to the year and while he's no world beater, the Oilers don't need him to be, they just need him to make saves at a somewhat average rate, which he has done the last 2 seasons with Montreal.
The trade specifically looks like:
To Montreal:
- Jack Campbell (Edmonton retains 1.5 million)
- Ryan McCleod
To Edmonton:
- Samuel Montembeault
Not sure Montreal goes for this even with the retention as Campbell's contract is still a boat anchor, but they're getting a solid young centre who can maybe fill the spot of Kirby Dach while he's injured and be a solid middle-6 player for years to come
Step 2: Sign a right handed defenseman
I don't think the Oilers defense is really a massive issue, the goaltending amplifies every one of their mistakes. But, it's pretty clear to me the only reason Vincent Desharnais is playing in the NHL is because the Oilers don't have another righty and he's physical. So I decided to bring back an old friend, Ethan Bear, who is coming off an injury but during his time in Edmonton was a solid defenseman, who got traded because the fans overreacted to one bad play he made in the playoffs. He hasn't looked like himself since leaving and joining first Carolina and then Vancouver but hopefully he's recovered and can find his stride again. Either way he'll be better than Desharnais.
He's signed for league minimum for one year
Step 3: Sign someone who can give the offense a jolt
The Oilers offense looks slow and not confident it itself, so I'm bringing in Patrick Kane a cheap one year flyer in hopes of finding some of his old magic. He's nowhere near what he used to be but he was playing hurt for a long while and now has gotten surgery to fix that. Rumors last year were that the Oilers were one of his top destinations (probably not this year given their record) but that's why I gave him a little extra bonus money. I don't see anyone offering him more than this considering his injury and declining production with age. I think for a team like the Oilers he's a risk I'd be willing to take as a GM.
He's signed for 1.5 million for one year
I was very hesitant to give up any picks, especially not the first this year, as if this season continues to slip away it could be a top 10, or who knows maybe even a top 5 pick. This draft is not as deep as last year but there are some quality players that will be available outside the top 3. Ivan Demidov, Aaron Kiviharju, Berkly Catton and Artyom Levshunov come to mind. Who know's at this rate it could be the first, and the Oilers could miss out on Macklin Celebrini or Cole Eiserman.
Consider the Oilers (extremely) conservative buyers at this point
The_Cat
Senior Member
The Oilers played better in the third period, but I think there’s a lot of work ahead
TravellingChris
Active Member
Here's one answer to your goaltending problem:
Full season stats from 2022-23 for Corinne Schroeder: 22 GP, 19 wins, 7 shutouts, 1.67 GAA, 0.955 save percentage
A heck of a lot cheaper than Campbell and can at least stop pucks.
Edmontonian
Active Member
@erudyk_29 I wish we could make those moves but they are very unrealistic. If you want to move Campbell, it's going to cost you a 1st and more, the 1.5 million retention doesn't change that fact especially when every other team in the league is aware that we are desperate. Patrick Kane has multiple suitors, he wants term and other teams can offer him more than we can, as far as I am aware he is also only looking at teams on the east coast so even if we could give him a proper offer I don't think he accepts. I wouldn't mind Ethan Bear back but I'm not sure if he would want to be back here after what happened to him last time, I also don't think he is enough of an improvement to make a difference.
I've seen some comments about trading Draisaitl which is hilarious. I'll start with the fact that his contract includes clauses where he is allowed to submit a list of 10 teams where he wants to go and every other destination is off limits unless we get his permission for him to waive it. Assuming he won't waive it for a rebuilding team because why would he do that, you have to trade with another contending team, meaning 1st round picks are worth much less and you have to work tight against the cap. There is no winning a Draisaitl trade, which is just one of the reasons it's stupid. Even if there was a magical deal where you can break even you don't trade him. Homegrown talent like Leon Draisaitl doesn't come around easy, unless he specifically requests out and won't resign with us you do not move him. By the way Darnell Nurse has those same clauses in his contract so he is also not going anywhere. Evan Bouchard is another who gets thrown around in trade conversations a lot, while his lack of defensive awareness and urgency is frustrating he is not an asset you throw away because you are having a bad 18 games.
At this point in the season, well before the deadline, it's not going to be easy to make any moves. We are also negotiating from a weak standpoint. The only thing I can see happening is trading for an average goalie and praying we can get whichever team we're trading with to take Campbell the other way without giving up too much. One of Montreals goalies is the most likely.
This sucks so far, we don't look good, players have no confidence, one of the worst teams in the league and it's nearly December. Everything that could've gone wrong for us so far has, we even got little to nothing out of a new coach which was the best shot we had at reviving the season. At this moment it's looking like we lost a good coach and asset in Woodcroft for nothing. I'm not sure what you do to stop the downward spiral at this point, and we are getting very close to it being too late even if you figure it out. What I am sure about though is that panicking and making silly moves to try and stop the sinking is not what we need right now. I know nobody wants to hear this but even if this season ends with us not making the playoffs, a colossal failure of course, we still need to try and be a competitive team next year.
I've seen some comments about trading Draisaitl which is hilarious. I'll start with the fact that his contract includes clauses where he is allowed to submit a list of 10 teams where he wants to go and every other destination is off limits unless we get his permission for him to waive it. Assuming he won't waive it for a rebuilding team because why would he do that, you have to trade with another contending team, meaning 1st round picks are worth much less and you have to work tight against the cap. There is no winning a Draisaitl trade, which is just one of the reasons it's stupid. Even if there was a magical deal where you can break even you don't trade him. Homegrown talent like Leon Draisaitl doesn't come around easy, unless he specifically requests out and won't resign with us you do not move him. By the way Darnell Nurse has those same clauses in his contract so he is also not going anywhere. Evan Bouchard is another who gets thrown around in trade conversations a lot, while his lack of defensive awareness and urgency is frustrating he is not an asset you throw away because you are having a bad 18 games.
At this point in the season, well before the deadline, it's not going to be easy to make any moves. We are also negotiating from a weak standpoint. The only thing I can see happening is trading for an average goalie and praying we can get whichever team we're trading with to take Campbell the other way without giving up too much. One of Montreals goalies is the most likely.
This sucks so far, we don't look good, players have no confidence, one of the worst teams in the league and it's nearly December. Everything that could've gone wrong for us so far has, we even got little to nothing out of a new coach which was the best shot we had at reviving the season. At this moment it's looking like we lost a good coach and asset in Woodcroft for nothing. I'm not sure what you do to stop the downward spiral at this point, and we are getting very close to it being too late even if you figure it out. What I am sure about though is that panicking and making silly moves to try and stop the sinking is not what we need right now. I know nobody wants to hear this but even if this season ends with us not making the playoffs, a colossal failure of course, we still need to try and be a competitive team next year.
TravellingChris
Active Member
I get that you have difficulty accepting the idea of trading Draisatl. The point is that he is almost certainly going to ask to leave anyway. He is frustrated and wants to be on a contending team--remember, this is a club that was supposed to be challenging for the Stanley Cup and right now it is highly unlikely we even make the playoffs. We are wasting an asset which could be used to get us an upgrade in goal. Keeping him accomplishes nothing if it means you cannot fix bigger holes elsewhere on the team, specifically between the pipes.
Remember also that we have only this season and next season where he is under contract and we could lose him for nothing after 2024-25. Yeah, a trade is tough to win but losing a top player with no return is worse. I also get that the Oilers have a recent history of dumb deals, like Hall for Larsson and a first-round draft choice (Matthew Barzal) for Griffin Reinhart, so the GM would have to be properly supervised.
I understand that you like the guy, you probably have a jersey with his name on the back that you enjoy wearing. But the play of this team this season means that our options are extremely limited. And the season is rapidly slipping away. It is also utterly unrealistic to suggest that we not use a top asset to make a significant upgrade where we are weak, and simply stand pat and " try and be a competitive team next year."
Edmontonian
Active Member
@TravellingChris I just explained to you that it's nearly impossible to formulate a good trade for us involving Draisaitl due to his clauses and the leagues overall cap situation. Also there are not that many elite goaltenders in the league, even if you're being generous and loose with rating a goaltender elite the majority of teams do not have one, so again that limits your trade options. If you want an elite goalie you're going to have to draft one, which is why I was very upset with Holland when we skipped over Wallstedt. Think about some of the best goalies in the league, tell me how many of them joined a team via trade or free agency.
Besides the Oilers don't need elite goaltending, just competent. Right now we have a team SV% of .867 which is just abysmal. Obviously it's not all on the goalies and the defence needs to be better as well but what gets overlooked sometimes is how hard it is for the D to do their job when they have no confidence the goalie will stop the puck. The added pressure really hurts, it's a vicious cycle between goaltending and defence.
This team with league average goaltending would have a lot more wins, and they might've won the cup last year if Skinner didn't have a rough playoffs. Sam Montembeault is my pick for who I think we should acquire, not a world beater but he's showed he can stop a solid amount of pucks on a bad defensive team in Montreal. I think him and Skinner could split games and be a good tandem where neither gets overworked, he also shouldn't be expensive to acquire with a $1mil cap hit and expiring UFA status. I'm not sure if Montreal would be willing to take Campbell but they are a team still on the ugly side of a rebuild so it shouldn't be off the table.
Besides the Oilers don't need elite goaltending, just competent. Right now we have a team SV% of .867 which is just abysmal. Obviously it's not all on the goalies and the defence needs to be better as well but what gets overlooked sometimes is how hard it is for the D to do their job when they have no confidence the goalie will stop the puck. The added pressure really hurts, it's a vicious cycle between goaltending and defence.
This team with league average goaltending would have a lot more wins, and they might've won the cup last year if Skinner didn't have a rough playoffs. Sam Montembeault is my pick for who I think we should acquire, not a world beater but he's showed he can stop a solid amount of pucks on a bad defensive team in Montreal. I think him and Skinner could split games and be a good tandem where neither gets overworked, he also shouldn't be expensive to acquire with a $1mil cap hit and expiring UFA status. I'm not sure if Montreal would be willing to take Campbell but they are a team still on the ugly side of a rebuild so it shouldn't be off the table.
bodsbods9090
Active Member
If Drai is traded, it'll be in the off-season when more teams have cap space. You'll get a much better offer in the off-season then you will right now.
archited
Senior Member
I can't see Drai doing any better than where he is right now. The team has lost some of its cohesiveness -- that is the problem that needs to be solved -- I don't think trades are a solution.
erudyk_29
Active Member
As @Edmontonian says, trading Drai is near impossible. In order to win that trade, you'd need to get such a big package left that no team would reasonably do it as it would decimate their roster and future. Trading for one of the elite goalies is a really bad idea, it's going to cost way too much and goalies are way too inconsistent to be worth a (relatively) consistent offensive producer like Draisaitl. In the modern NHL the most consistently reliable aspect of a team is offense, followed by defense and far behind is goaltending.
Some examples from just last years playoffs:
Vasilevskiy, universally considered one of the best goalies of the last decade, and a top playoff performer having won a Conn Smythe trophy, was absolutely caved in by the Leafs in the first round last year.
Adin Hill, generally considered a fringe NHL, backup goalie up to this point suddenly went crazy after being forced to come in and backstop the Knights after injuries to goalies ahead of him in the depth chart.
Goalies are way too weird to sacrifice your best asset (in the Oilers case, offense) for. You're way more likely to catch lightning in a bottle with a random goalie than to get consistent goaltending from any one specific player.
Also @Edmontonian, I nearly had a meltdown when we didn't take Wallstedt as well, it was a clear example of something we've seen Ken Holland do a lot in his tenure with the Oilers, he picks a player he likes and then will only take that player. Even if a top player in a needed position (like Wallstedt) falls to him. Going back to 2019, he opted to take Broberg a little ahead of where he was supposed to be taken with Trevor Zegras, Matt Boldy, Cole Caufield and Spencer Knight all still on the board. In 2020 he took Dylan Holloway with Kaiden Guhle, Dawson Mercer and Lukas Reichel still on the board. The last 2 are not as bad as there wasn't a blue-chip piece available necessarily like their was with Wallstedt, but he still took a player several picks higher than he was supposed to go because he liked that one player and refused to change his plans when someone fell to him.
Some examples from just last years playoffs:
Vasilevskiy, universally considered one of the best goalies of the last decade, and a top playoff performer having won a Conn Smythe trophy, was absolutely caved in by the Leafs in the first round last year.
Adin Hill, generally considered a fringe NHL, backup goalie up to this point suddenly went crazy after being forced to come in and backstop the Knights after injuries to goalies ahead of him in the depth chart.
Goalies are way too weird to sacrifice your best asset (in the Oilers case, offense) for. You're way more likely to catch lightning in a bottle with a random goalie than to get consistent goaltending from any one specific player.
Also @Edmontonian, I nearly had a meltdown when we didn't take Wallstedt as well, it was a clear example of something we've seen Ken Holland do a lot in his tenure with the Oilers, he picks a player he likes and then will only take that player. Even if a top player in a needed position (like Wallstedt) falls to him. Going back to 2019, he opted to take Broberg a little ahead of where he was supposed to be taken with Trevor Zegras, Matt Boldy, Cole Caufield and Spencer Knight all still on the board. In 2020 he took Dylan Holloway with Kaiden Guhle, Dawson Mercer and Lukas Reichel still on the board. The last 2 are not as bad as there wasn't a blue-chip piece available necessarily like their was with Wallstedt, but he still took a player several picks higher than he was supposed to go because he liked that one player and refused to change his plans when someone fell to him.