Manulife Place Renovations | 145.99m | 36s | AIMCo | MdeAS

What do you think of this project?

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There seems to be a growing disconnect between the number of people living downtown or nearby and the diminishing amount of retail space. There was more retail downtown in the late 80's when none of the nearby newer condo towers existed. I think there has long been an attitude problem in Edmonton in how it views its downtown and that negative view comes across to all those that visit our city and not unreasonably expect a city of our size should have a more viable downtown.

There are a lot of reasons historical and otherwise for this, but more importantly I think we as a city need to figure out how to fix it. I don't think we should continue to accept mediocrity.
 
David A said:
There seems to be a growing disconnect between the number of people living downtown or nearby and the diminishing amount of retail space. There was more retail downtown in the late 80's when none of the nearby newer condo towers existed. I think there has long been an attitude problem in Edmonton in how it views its downtown and that negative view comes across to all those that visit our city and not unreasonably expect a city of our size should have a more viable downtown.

There are a lot of reasons historical and otherwise for this, but more importantly I think we as a city need to figure out how to fix it. I don't think we should continue to accept mediocrity.
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This is something I have noticed and thought about as well. More people living and working downtown, which continues to increase YoY, yet just recently the Bay has left (the only major Canadian city without a Bay downtown, soon to be joined only by Winnipeg) and Holt has left (again, Edmonton and Winnipeg the only major Canadian cities without a Holt downtown). This is a negative trend that is going against the idea of revitalizing downtown, the arena district, new LRT lines, etc.. There is a disconnect here and I am curious exactly what people think that could be. Is there something the retail market experts know or forecast that people on a forum or in City Hall don't know/see?
 
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CaptainBL said:
This is something I have noticed and thought about as well. More people living and working downtown, which continues to increase YoY, yet just recently the Bay has left (the only major Canadian city without a Bay downtown, soon to be joined only by Winnipeg) and Holt has left (again, Edmonton and Winnipeg the only major Canadian cities without a Holt downtown). This is a negative trend that is going against the idea of revitalizing downtown, the arena district, new LRT lines. There is a disconnect here and I am curious exactly what people think that could be.
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A poor and/or relatively unsteady economy for the last 12 years here has lead to there being less invective for large commercial/projects to start up imo, so residential construction has being outpacing commercial more and more. We need to start getting off the oil rollercoaster and dip out feet into other economies is what the solution is here.
 
I agree with this to a certain degree. Despite having similar yet different demographics (more white collar professionals, corporate jobs, entrepreneurs, start-ups, VCs, etc.), Calgary has done much better than us in this space while being tied to the same economy. So where I stop agreeing with you is that this problem is like an onion and you've identified the outer layer problem. But peel back a layer and ask why did Calgary do better (more condos, more retail, etc. before the oil collapse) in the same economy over the last 12+ years? This is the genesis of something I have genuinely been curios about Edmonton for some time. I fully recognize that this is slightly off topic, but what is Edmonton doing wrong? When you pull back the layers of the onions to find the root what is it that city council, administration, business leaders or whoever are doing, or not doing, that is rippling down the line in retail leaving downtown or companies not relocating downtown?

In essence, what I am saying is the retail or offices leaving downtown or not coming downtown in the first place is not the problem, but likely an effect of the deep rooted problems and I am very curious why these exist, and why Edmonton seems to be the city that takes one step forward then three steps back and trips on itself all the time. Very curious of others' thoughts.
 
CaptainBL said:
I agree with this to a certain degree. Despite having similar yet different demographics (more white collar professionals, corporate jobs, entrepreneurs, start-ups, VCs, etc.), Calgary has done much better than us in this space while being tied to the same economy. So where I stop agreeing with you is that this problem is like an onion and you've identified the outer layer problem. But peel back a layer and ask why did Calgary do better (more condos, more retail, etc. before the oil collapse) in the same economy over the last 12+ years? This is the genesis of something I have genuinely been curios about Edmonton for some time. I fully recognize that this is slightly off topic, but what is Edmonton doing wrong? When you pull back the layers of the onions to find the root what is it that city council, administration, business leaders or whoever are doing, or not doing, that is rippling down the line in retail leaving downtown or companies not relocating downtown?

In essence, what I am saying is the retail or offices leaving downtown or not coming downtown in the first place is not the problem, but likely an effect of the deep rooted problems and I am very curious why these exist, and why Edmonton seems to be the city that takes one step forward then three steps back and trips on itself all the time. Very curious of others' thoughts.
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Better access to the airport and the airport historically having better international routes than Edmonton put Calgary far ahead a long time ago. Make no mistake, this goes back much further than twelve years. The building this thread is about, Manulife Place, was completed in 1983.

Now that the economy is bust, attracting new businesses in both cities is going to be terribly hard. At least Calgary has newer and nicer office space to do it with. I think Edmonton has an opportunity to attract smaller startups, but we will be in a tough spot to attract larger businesses unless there is an innate need and desire to be close to the provincial government.
 
Agreed and I believe you are correct, so I'll counter and ask how does Ottawa get by fairing quite well in the tech space while being sandwiched between the corporate powerhouses of Toronto and Montreal? How did Austin land the Oracle head office today over Houston and Dallas, or any other larger corporate city in the U.S. for that matter? This whole Calgary is right next to us so we cant compete attitude seems to be a common theme in Edmonton that has been detrimental to our development, especially downtown. What does Edmonton need to do attract larger businesses and win?
 
CaptainBL said:
Agreed and I believe you are correct, so I'll counter and ask how does Ottawa get by fairing quite well in the tech space while being sandwiched between the corporate powerhouses of Toronto and Montreal? How did Austin land the Oracle head office today over Houston and Dallas, or any other larger corporate city in the U.S. for that matter? This whole Calgary is right next to us so we cant compete attitude seems to be a common theme in Edmonton that has been detrimental to our development, especially downtown. What does Edmonton need to do attract larger businesses and win?
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That is more the state attracting Oracle to support employees as there is no personal income tax in Texas. That said, Austin already has other tech companies located there and is largely seen as a desirable up and coming city.

I'm guessing there were organic startups in Ottawa and that there were likely subsidies to companies. In addition, Ottawa has good airport access because the Federal government is there, so it automatically has international destinations. Edmonton was growing in the tech space under the NDP. The province ended the subsidy to that industry when the UCP was elected.

I was just pointing out what Calgary has done historically - not saying that we can't or don't compete. We have had successful companies start in Edmonton, Stantec, PCL, Telus, etc. Telus likely exited because they wanted to support their employees in a better/nicer city than Edmonton and Edmonton wasn't willing to subsidize them to the extent that may make them stay. Who knows, maybe Edmonton was willing and they still chose to leave. Business decisions are not always made in the most rational way and Edmonton is pretty far north and the climate isn't for everyone. That is one big thing in my mind that I would consider if I were a business. It isn't always about compete attitude. There are also factors at play that are outside of the control of any city or government.

I have chosen to live in Edmonton and I like it here, but not everyone shares that attitude and there are days where I think about moving back to Vancouver, because I simply like the climate there more.
 
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CaptainBL said:
I agree with this to a certain degree. Despite having similar yet different demographics (more white collar professionals, corporate jobs, entrepreneurs, start-ups, VCs, etc.), Calgary has done much better than us in this space while being tied to the same economy. So where I stop agreeing with you is that this problem is like an onion and you've identified the outer layer problem. But peel back a layer and ask why did Calgary do better (more condos, more retail, etc. before the oil collapse) in the same economy over the last 12+ years? This is the genesis of something I have genuinely been curios about Edmonton for some time. I fully recognize that this is slightly off topic, but what is Edmonton doing wrong? When you pull back the layers of the onions to find the root what is it that city council, administration, business leaders or whoever are doing, or not doing, that is rippling down the line in retail leaving downtown or companies not relocating downtown?

In essence, what I am saying is the retail or offices leaving downtown or not coming downtown in the first place is not the problem, but likely an effect of the deep rooted problems and I am very curious why these exist, and why Edmonton seems to be the city that takes one step forward then three steps back and trips on itself all the time. Very curious of others' thoughts.
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IMO you touched upon the answer in your second sentence. Not sure where one might find them, but if you were to peel back the employment hotspots for Edmonton vs Calgary in the boom years, things would look WAAY different between the two cities. In Edmonton, the money was largely being made in mod yards, mfg plants, warehouses, supplier offices and other oil & gas related companies, which are by-and-large located in the big industrial areas (Nisku, Acheson, 34th st, etc), whereas the big oil HQs and related EPCs which is where all the $$ was being made in Calgary were nearly all in offices downtown.

The folks here in Edmonton making big oil $ thus have no incentive to live near downtown and could choose a large house in the suburbs of Edmonton, and spend their money where it was easily accessible by vehicle (West Ed, South Common, Southgate, etc), and those earning the same $$ in Calgary, it made sense to live in/around downtown since they work there, and thus to do their retail shopping where convenient--alas, in downtown.

And then of course, insert notes about how a large portion of Edmonton's downtown work force are gov't workers, which certainly weren't making close to the same money as your average white collar baller in boomtime Calgary, etc etc

Sorry if this is the cop out answer and not something deeper. Perhaps we could blame Jan Reimer, blame the airport, blame Imperial for spazzing out and going to Calgary, whatever the case for why Edmonton didn't become the Houston of Alberta instead.
 
I will go on the record and state, while I know this thread is about Manulife Place, I really do enjoy the overarching discussion. Especially since it's not argumentative.
 
Coming from Calgary to Edmonton a couple of years ago, it was exciting to see some change finally happening downtown - office and residential both going up, and Rogers Place doing a great bump to the local scene. But perhaps it was a bit pre-mature to assume things would continue with momentum. COVID notwithstanding, what was Edmonton doing in terms of anything new economy-wise other than attract small tech startups and Aurora (which has also fizzled)? All I could see what the same places in the core area, with satellite offices from some of the O/G companies and a few of the tech giants (IBM, CGI, etc.) and the consulting companies (MNP, EY, Deloitte, etc.). Things seem to have topped out and after four years here I can't ascertain what is going to take Edmonton beyond the public sector / construction industries.

Which brings me back to the downtown space. We have fancy new offices and are re-doing older buildings, but was there really a market for this? I just don't see anything there to move the needle. Additionally looking it through a competitive lens against what Calgary has has always been a fools errand; we have a one-trick pony economy and the head offices were settled in Calgary long ago. And the amount of office needed was always inflated - I worked in downtown Calgary for over 10 years, most reasonable people saw that we'd have a glut of office space when the good times came to an end (2014 was clearly that point).

For Edmonton, in conjunction with the City's plan for multiple power nodes around the city, downtown doesn't have to be the "CBD" that all roads have to flow to - it simply has to be the most central point in Edmonton. I would wager to say that more towers (commercial or residential) are not necessarily what is needed anymore. With the growth of the train lines, availability of micro-transit and the gentrification of inner-city neighborhoods (some, not all), it would seem to me that is can simply be a connection point that can cater to community and public events - the downtown market, festivals, concerts, sports, expos, etc.

I go to the West End to do general shopping. I go to South Edmonton for golfing and hiking. I go to Whyte and 124th for entertainment and hipster fun, and I go to East Edmonton for specific grabs (e.g. Stawnichys in Beverly and Kobachi in Sherwood Park). Downtown is simply a point I go through to get to other places - and primarily because I like looking at buildings. However I will attend the events and concerts, and drop bucks at the pubs and restaurants along the way. Sometimes I even drop into Paul Kane park for some R&R and to feel connected to the local community. I am really looking forward to the Valley Line West being able to carry me through along the way.

My point is maybe we don't need to think of Downtown as our city's Valhalla; it can simply be a stop along the way. And development can reflect that as much - it is already happening. And perhaps the things that are required for the area are more to cater to public and community gathering points, such as inviting green areas, event spaces, and contemporary housing options. Heck, even with a winding winter iceway it might have had that unique punch to get people in and out during the coldest months of the year.

It is with those lifestyle amenities that I think will more naturally drive people towards central living - and subsequent occupancy of our existing structures that can help elevate the area and move away from the somewhat hostile reputation it gets. And the concept of commuting, 9-5 CBD life is just slowly withering away as culture and technology change. I don't think we can try and fight that, nor the whims of an evolving populous that don't have the same demands as they did in the 80s and 90s.

Just my two cents.
 
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Anyone have some literature or videos they've seen on urban core trends with the changes in work, tech, etc? Retail to me is interesting. I'm 24 right now, right at the start of gen z. My wife and I are married 3 years and live pretty normal adult lives we assume haha. We have shopped in malls maybe 6 times since being married (not sure if we even purchased every time). All clothing, groceries, and the majority of other shopping is done online. We furnished our whole house and bought all the stuff like lawn mowers, tools, couches...all online.

So im not sure what the future of retail is. Especially in cores. When I think of a vancouver, I know they've attracted some big tech recently and they have the usual banking, accounting, etc players. But is their downtown not heavily residential, food, entertainment, leisure? Is the lifestyle and culture the true sells of dense cores now? Vs avoiding the commute or being close to the office. If 50% of people that used to work in offices can mostly be remote now, will people still want to be in downtown condos?

I think we need to have a new value proposition for downtowns as compared to suburbs. Environmental, health, diversity, access to services, culture, affordability. Downtowns need to be better than the suburbs at a lot of stuff to woo people.

Glad Manulife is making this upgrade. But I don't see us losing retail DT as unique to edmonton. And I don't put my hope in attracting retail as being a large part of the solution.
 
It seems people will come downtown for shopping in the right circumstances. My best example I have is the 104 street farmers market when we had it. I had friends from Sherwood Park and west end who often came in for that throughout summer. How do we create more of that?

I'm hopeful of a few upcoming projects injecting some additional commercial interest. One is the new Loblaws city market which is as much of a retail anchor that entire area has. So it can only help.

Another is the soon to be completed LRT. I think that should create more foot traffic and interest in downtown.

The arena district still isnt complete and all the downtown events have had so much disruption. That will change in a year, hopefully. That should help.

For future projects, I would love to see the High Level line project and the gondola project go ahead. Thst will bring many locals and tourists into downtown.

I think improving bike access into downtown will be beneficial.

Other thoughts that likely aren't feasible would be better leasing rates downtown although I don't know how they compare to rates outside of downtown. Residential buildings are providing all sorts of incentives for the time being, does commercial do that too?

What if city gave up some downtown parking revenue? haha. Make it a cheap flat rate or free for short term. If there were a lot more retail bays occupied as a result and paying taxes the city would recoup that money. Then longer term the city can look at parking rates again.

How about providing some empty downtown retail bays to some pop up businesses where new entrepreneurs are just starting out - something like Mercer building did in its basement. Provide a certain amount of retail bays at a lower rate for start ups like certain residential buildings provide a certain percentage of affordable housing.
 
Excellent points, one and all. Retail and its roommate -- hospitality -- are undergoing seismic changes and the internet and its inherent conveniences are accelerating that change. Malls are dying. Edmonton historically has been a blue collar city with a white collar governmental attachment; Calgary, historically has been a white collar city primarily focused on the oil patch (similar to the respective roles of Houston (head office) and Dallas-Fort Worth (blue collar). Currently Edmonton has what I would call a "maintenance" City government focused on bureaucratic status quo sensibility and not much interested in creative thinking. The Provincial government is focused on precisely the wrong thing; they are thinking that a fiscally responsible thing to do in a tight and receding marketplace is to clamp down on spending when, in fact they should be doing the exact opposite -- they should be investing in education, infrastructure, and expansion projects, countering a recession mentality. The office market, too, is rapidly changing -- task-oriented work at home, decentralization, and piece work.
Currently, I would far rather be in Edmonton's shoes than Calgary's. Calgary has a huge glut of downtown office space that is likely to remain so for many years into the future. Edmonton has an office occupancy problem too but on a much smaller scale.
Edmonton's downtown is in turmoil mostly related to construction (LRT, Ice district, Apartment construction, etc.). As this begins to settle out there are some huge pluses -- a civic centre that boasts a new library, an expanded Winspear centre, an avant-garde art gallery, the RAM (hasn't had the ability to perform properly since opening just as COVID came on the scene), the Citadel -- each and all being destination points. A soon-to-be new community gathering/performance space in the Ice district. These various elements just need to be stitched together with a local scene that encourages people to walk the spaces and to be entertained while doing so. The glass is half-full!
 
CaptainBL said:
This is something I have noticed and thought about as well. More people living and working downtown, which continues to increase YoY, yet just recently the Bay has left (the only major Canadian city without a Bay downtown, soon to be joined only by Winnipeg) and Holt has left (again, Edmonton and Winnipeg the only major Canadian cities without a Holt downtown). This is a negative trend that is going against the idea of revitalizing downtown, the arena district, new LRT lines, etc.. There is a disconnect here and I am curious exactly what people think that could be. Is there something the retail market experts know or forecast that people on a forum or in City Hall don't know/see?
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The Bay is still open and will be for 6-12 months, maybe more... but the end is near and redevelopment not far behind that.

Holt left Ottawa and QC as well as many other centres (over the years) and is focussing on Van-Tor-MTL... Calgary is barely hanging on I am told.

That all said, the power of WEM is still very real and difficult to overcome for may, but permits other shops such as The Helm or Vandenberg's (Birks leaving) to be more viable and even expand. I hope that we continue to see more specialty stores filling some of those gaps.
 
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