ICE District Phase 2 | 149.95m | ?s | ICE District Prop.

[archited]

Unless a new stadium has a retractable roof it’s a nonstarter.

The technology for clear-span retractable roofs has progressed such that they are now very light and translucent -- they are no longer outrageously expensive and, dare I say, it would be a huge disservice to a City like Edmonton to not have the ability to cover a sports field (revenue potential goes up exponentially with the ability to enclose a large space -- CFL-type football; men's and women's professional soccer; University games; Commonwealth/Olympic games; track and field meets; concerts not having to rely on fair weather; equipment shows and conventions; and other events (e.g. rodeos, dressage, etc.).

Also I suspect the space used for such a stadium could also considerably reduce the space that could be developed for housing and other commercial use, so I'm not sure this would be in the interest of the owner of this land.

Actually, considering that stadiums are typically oval in shape, it leaves the corners available for high-rise structures and, apart from that, the land that Katz has in mind is not the Phase II land directly north of the arena (not large enough for a stadium structure at any rate) and so that land will remain the housing and park and retail island that he has always envisioned -- so contrary to your view, David, there is actually a large amount of residential potential in both the Phase II land and in the stadium concept (I would also expect another large name-brand hotel to accompany the stadium). It would be great if he could take over Commonwealth Stadium as well and turn it into a summer and winter X-games venue, built out specifically to house those games -- apparently they are large revenue generators and they attract a global audience (which certainly couldn't hurt Edmonton).

I believe that Katz clearly sees the revenue potential in professional sports and I think that Rogers arena has made him a fair chunk of change. As they say in sport's betting, it is prudent now to "double down" on that premise -- he essentially would end up owning downtown and would stand to far outpace what the Ghermezians have going in the west part of the City. The magnet of two world class sports venues would certainly over time add all of the life that downtown could stand. One asset that Mr. Katz has in spades is that he doesn't "cheap out" on his visions.

 

[God]

Too many words for a hypothetical…

 

[Glenco]

If another stadium is built it SHOULD NOT have a running track. It leaves spectators too far from the action destroying most of the atmosphere.

 

[archited]

If another stadium is built it SHOULD NOT have a running track. It leaves spectators too far from the action destroying most of the atmosphere.

Unless the seating section adjacent is portable so that it can accommodate both scenarios -- track and non-track events. And by portable I don't mean cheap aluminum bench seating (deluxe would be the word). You should really look at the retrofitted Madrid stadium -- I posted it here some while ago under a different heading I believe.

 

[David A]

The technology for clear-span retractable roofs has progressed such that they are now very light and translucent -- they are no longer outrageously expensive and, dare I say, it would be a huge disservice to a City like Edmonton to not have the ability to cover a sports field (revenue potential goes up exponentially with the ability to enclose a large space -- CFL-type football; men's and women's professional soccer; University games; Commonwealth/Olympic games; track and field meets; concerts not having to rely on fair weather; equipment shows and conventions; and other events (e.g. rodeos, dressage, etc.).

Actually, considering that stadiums are typically oval in shape, it leaves the corners available for high-rise structures and, apart from that, the land that Katz has in mind is not the Phase II land directly north of the arena (not large enough for a stadium structure at any rate) and so that land will remain the housing and park and retail island that he has always envisioned -- so contrary to your view, David, there is actually a large amount of residential potential in both the Phase II land and in the stadium concept (I would also expect another large name-brand hotel to accompany the stadium). It would be great if he could take over Commonwealth Stadium as well and turn it into a summer and winter X-games venue, built out specifically to house those games -- apparently they are large revenue generators and they attract a global audience (which certainly couldn't hurt Edmonton).

I believe that Katz clearly sees the revenue potential in professional sports and I think that Rogers arena has made him a fair chunk of change. As they say in sport's betting, it is prudent now to "double down" on that premise -- he essentially would end up owning downtown and would stand to far outpace what the Ghermezians have going in the west part of the City. The magnet of two world class sports venues would certainly over time add all of the life that downtown could stand. One asset that Mr. Katz has in spades is that he doesn't "cheap out" on his visions.

The discussion about a new stadium somehow seems to keep popping up in this particular forum, but I don't speak for Katz, so I don't know if there is some other space he has in mind. Perhaps you know his mind better.

My point is not whether retractable roof is outrageously expensive or not, but just that it will increase the cost of the stadium and someone will have to pay for the considerable total cost of that stadium. In the good old days, governments generously paid for facilities like Commonwealth Stadium, but that is not what the Alberta government is now proposing here.

Yes it would be nice to have a facility here that could be used throughout the year, but I don't see the CFL team as a huge revenue generator (considerably less so than NHL hockey) and I don't see the Olympics coming here anytime soon either, I feel that is wildly optimistic bordering on fantasy.

 

[archited]

Tell you what David you dream about your plain vanilla outcomes and I will dream about what might be possible, in the extreme or not. You focus on what can't be done and I will focus on what can happen. I suppose you were one of the ones who felt that Rogers Place was "pie in the sky" when it was in early stages and the Greyhound Bus Station still existed.

 

[God]

Well we aren’t in any stages of anything right now. All we know is that Katz wants to build residential in phase 2 and that the Elks are for sale. If you know something that holds more substance please let us know. This is more of a fantasy right now than the Lord of The Rings movie I’m about to watch tonight.

 

[Gronk!]

A new stadium with real turf (vs artificial turf) and a retractable roof are must-haves for me.

 

[husky]

For a realistic site for a new stadium, they'd need a space at least 300m by 200m for the building (using Regina and Winnipeg as examples) nevermind the associated infrastructure. Could squeeze a smaller soccer specific stadium in something 250m x 200m (BMO Field, Allianz Park in Minnesota, Lower.com in Columbus, Groupama Arena in Budapest).

So the Ice District Phase II lands are almost certainly out of the equation unless all you're doing is building the building and that's it, and even then it's real right. Even in the Quarters you'd be really squeezing it in. Keep in mind that by doing that you are forgoing any other income (condos, rental buildings etc).

Finding a contiguous piece of land to fit something of that size is difficult. Could maybe fit in Rossdale but then again, you'd have little to no other development. ReMax field would probably have to come down too, nevermind the sensitivities with potential burial grounds etc. By the Kinsmen would work but transit access is difficult to non-existent (unless you added a stop on the LRT below the HLB. CP Yard would have enough space but the acquisition and remediation costs likely destroy any funding model.

The only realistic sites then become the existing site (Reno, or tear down and rebuild) or something on the Exhibition Lands. If for whatever reason Katz is actually interested, I could see them being interested in the existing site due to the momentum the development around the stadium already has. Make it a more attractive spot and it could easily become a stronger TOD. Transit is already there.

As for everyone's want for a retractable roof, I think the cost benefit would be way better to just have some form of fixed roof structure (similar to Winnipeg/Regina) that covers the spectators orna fabric type roof like Stuttgart has on their stadium (though not sure how it handles snow load)

 

[Jack Harris]

Well we aren’t in any stages of anything right now. All we know is that Katz wants to build residential in phase 2 and that the Elks are for sale. If you know something that holds more substance please let us know. This is more of a fantasy right now than the Lord of The Rings movie I’m about to watch tonight.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1813934326578602000

Saw this tweet from Neilson the other day do not really know what hes alluding to but could possibly mean Elks maybe getting a new home? Again just assumptive on my end here

 

[Glenco]

Just for reference

 

[archited]

So the Ice District Phase II lands are almost certainly out of the equation unless all you're doing is building the building and that's it, and even then it's real right. Even in the Quarters you'd be really squeezing it in. Keep in mind that by doing that you are forgoing any other income (condos, rental buildings etc).

Definitely not ICE District Phase II!

 

[MacLac]

So,

1.) Sohi claims it will cost $175M to get Commonwealth up to snuff. Formally asks the Province? We can surmise that the city has submitted formal plans to the Province as the Journal dude and Cartmell have said. City wants $330M from the Danni to match the fLamers new arena.
2.) Dusty Nielson says, "Katz is involved with the future of Commonwealth."
3.) Ice District Phase 2 is not big enough to hold a new stadium.
4.) @archited - says Phase 2 is NOT in play with whatever idea is floating around.

5.) = ?????

 

[TAS]

So,

1.) Sohi claims it will cost $175M to get Commonwealth up to snuff. Formally asks the Province? We can surmise that the city has submitted formal plans to the Province as the Journal dude and Cartmell have said. City wants $330M from the Danni to match the fLamers new arena.
2.) Dusty Nielson says, "Katz is involved with the future of Commonwealth."
3.) Ice District Phase 2 is not big enough to hold a new stadium.
4.) @archited - says Phase 2 is NOT in play with whatever idea is floating around.

5.) = ?????

Also, $35 million that the province ends up providing may be going directly to cover Coliseum demolition.

 

[David A]

For a realistic site for a new stadium, they'd need a space at least 300m by 200m for the building (using Regina and Winnipeg as examples) nevermind the associated infrastructure. Could squeeze a smaller soccer specific stadium in something 250m x 200m (BMO Field, Allianz Park in Minnesota, Lower.com in Columbus, Groupama Arena in Budapest).

So the Ice District Phase II lands are almost certainly out of the equation unless all you're doing is building the building and that's it, and even then it's real right. Even in the Quarters you'd be really squeezing it in. Keep in mind that by doing that you are forgoing any other income (condos, rental buildings etc).

Finding a contiguous piece of land to fit something of that size is difficult. Could maybe fit in Rossdale but then again, you'd have little to no other development. ReMax field would probably have to come down too, nevermind the sensitivities with potential burial grounds etc. By the Kinsmen would work but transit access is difficult to non-existent (unless you added a stop on the LRT below the HLB. CP Yard would have enough space but the acquisition and remediation costs likely destroy any funding model.

The only realistic sites then become the existing site (Reno, or tear down and rebuild) or something on the Exhibition Lands. If for whatever reason Katz is actually interested, I could see them being interested in the existing site due to the momentum the development around the stadium already has. Make it a more attractive spot and it could easily become a stronger TOD. Transit is already there.

As for everyone's want for a retractable roof, I think the cost benefit would be way better to just have some form of fixed roof structure (similar to Winnipeg/Regina) that covers the spectators orna fabric type roof like Stuttgart has on their stadium (though not sure how it handles snow load)

Yeah, I really don't see where this new stadium would be built either. Some of the proponents are either unable or unwilling to explain that, but it seems fairly clear the Ice District Phase 2 space would not work very well.

If a retractable roof could be done more affordably, that would be intriguing to me but then there is also the considerable cost of a new stadium, so perhaps it would be best then to just put this roof on the existing stadium. This along with the improvements Sohi is proposing could still come considerably under the cost of a new stadium. There is a fair amount of development around Commonwealth Stadium now and also great potential around the nearby Coliseum, so maybe better to focus on this area. Ice District Phase 2 will proceed without a new stadium and in fact will probably be better if more focused on residential.