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What do you think of this project?


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While I am bummed that Cineplex pulled the plug on their VIP project for ID, this is a decent backup plan... ish. It definitely fills a middle of the market need in the core that Loblaw's and Safeway at Oliver and Save On Foods at Railtown kind of do but not to the extent that this store will. With all the space in it, I am truly surprised that City Centre hasn't landed a single grocery tenant since the old Woodward's Food Floor days... I wonder if there was a restriction on it at all or if they just didn't consider it "upmarket" enough to land...
 
While I am bummed that Cineplex pulled the plug on their VIP project for ID, this is a decent backup plan... ish. It definitely fills a middle of the market need in the core that Loblaw's and Safeway at Oliver and Save On Foods at Railtown kind of do but not to the extent that this store will. With all the space in it, I am truly surprised that City Centre hasn't landed a single grocery tenant since the old Woodward's Food Floor days... I wonder if there was a restriction on it at all or if they just didn't consider it "upmarket" enough to land...

The grocery was always part of the plan in one form or another and will really compliment other offerings in the Downtown.

Sobeys on Jasper/104 at 15k ft was right sized, but utterly and completely mismanaged and poorly/inefficiently laid out.

That said, this new store and Save On are going to be about equidistant, so it won't impact me all that much other than a better cheese, baker and meat selection.
 
^^^^That's right. Upscale and niche market groceterias in the U.S. like Whole Foods and Trader Joe's count on deli sections to introduce customers to new concepts in eating and expose new shelf-products. It makes them very popular with the public. And considering that this is a two-level venture I am almost certain that there will be a deli -- a real shame if not!
 
^^^^Agree and that's where I think the trend will go. I already have an instacart list with all our staples (milk, cereal, chopped salads, chicken breasts, etc) and usually get a couple deliveries every week. I only go to the grocery store when I am looking for something new or want to buy something out of the ordinary that I want to look at like steaks, deli items, etc. An most people I work with are doing something similar. I don't think this trend will reverse after people go back into work. A location like this would want to prioritize deli and other high margin items at the front to make it a convenient alternative to restaurants.
 
As a gen z here, I can't see grocery stores surviving my generation. None of my friends and I go to stores unless a last resort. All regular groceries are ordered and delivered/picked up or we use meal boxes.

I imagine "ghost kitchen"/Amazon warehouse models will replace a lot of grocery stores in the next 15 years. More efficient to own large warehouse space outside the city, make non attractive interiors with automated robots selecting items to pack boxes to be shipped to households.

Superstore in Toronto is testing meal boxes already.

So all that to say...I hope new stores are focused on experience, not just providing the necessities. If not, thatll be like building blockbusters in 2006.
 
And considering that this is a two-level venture I am almost certain that there will be a deli -- a real shame if not!
Are you referring to two floor levels or is this a reference to level in another context ?

If it's architectural, I've never seen any plan showing more than the one level (2nd floor) for the City Market. There is a small entry space on the main floor but really just access to the escalators unless they really shoehorn something in. The elevations of the building looks like there could potentially be a third level but no leasing plan has ever shown it and I've presumed it's just generous space for the heavy duty mechanical needed for the store.
 
^ I think your right Valveman, it's one level on 2nd unless there have been some changes. Level 3 is HVAK but also a restaurant/bar with a rooftop patio.
I think an eat-in deli a great idea, whether in City Market or occupying one of the many CRU's on the ground floor.
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Maybe and shifting towards a large piece of the pie, sure.

I could see the Costcos do well and smaller-scale more local/walkable spots doing well in certain areas.

But yes, I wonder about the viability of places like a 104ave Safeway.
 
That said, this new store and Save On are going to be about equidistant, so it won't impact me all that much other than a better cheese, baker and meat selection.
Maybe not for you but for anyone in the 103/104 Street north of Jasper (various lofts, Icons, Century, Foxes, Ultima, Encore, Legends, Sky, etc - huge market) this City Market will be much, much more convenient - less than two blocks away from many of those !

Look at the Brewery District one... relatively small traditional grocery section and a real focus on baking, meats, veg and takeaway/grab and go (where the money is).
I consider baking, meats, veg and takeaway part of a typical modern grocery - don't you ? To me it's the replication of a restaurant (deli) that would be a duplication of other already available local services that is not a wise addition at the cost of reducing the "baking, meats, veg, takeaway" that we both evidently desire...

^ I think your right Valveman, it's one level on 2nd unless there have been some changes. Level 3 is HVAK but also a restaurant/bar with a rooftop patio.
I think an eat-in deli a great idea, whether in City Market or occupying one of the many CRU's on the ground floor.
Exactly, there's a lot of still available CRUs in Ice District in addition to the many restaurant choices already existing if a really good deli (something I am all in favour of) wants to come to the party ! No need to squeeze it into the only decent size grocery in the core.
 
^It will make much of Downtown far more urban, livable and convenient for sure; simply stating that Save-On is going to still be much closer for many. Great to have more options though and I cannot emphasize enough how much more desirability this will add to the area.

^You'd be surprised. I am always surprised at the % of 'outer ring' vs. 'inner ring' for most folks.
 
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As a gen z here, I can't see grocery stores surviving my generation. None of my friends and I go to stores unless a last resort. All regular groceries are ordered and delivered/picked up or we use meal boxes.

I imagine "ghost kitchen"/Amazon warehouse models will replace a lot of grocery stores in the next 15 years. More efficient to own large warehouse space outside the city, make non attractive interiors with automated robots selecting items to pack boxes to be shipped to households.

Superstore in Toronto is testing meal boxes already.

So all that to say...I hope new stores are focused on experience, not just providing the necessities. If not, thatll be like building blockbusters in 2006.

I don`t have much to add to this, just wanted to corroborate by reminding that the demographic that`s most attracted to living in dense urban areas are Gen Y and Gen Z. It doesn`t mean that we should build and serve only these people (and not all young people are made alike), but we should consider this group as the core demographic target of downtown developments, especially in terms of retail, hospitality and food services.

Not to mention that we're receiving a large influx of immigrants, A LOT of them coming from places in Asia and South America (like myself) and, mostly, from big, dense cities, used to smaller scale stop-and-go stores that fit more into a busier, denser downtown. These people don`t usually have cars right off the bat and would prefer to make short quick trips, if possible, to minimize their exposure to the weather, especially in the Winter, which is way too harsh for anyone not used to it. These immigrants are, even more than Gen Y and Z, the short-term hope for densification and movement in the Downtown areas, we need to make it attractive to them, much more than the "suburban dream". These are people not yet addicted to cars, big yards and strip malls that we can easily attract to the areas we want to densify and revitalize.

@Valveman , no one advocated for a huge, restaurant-like deli space, but the City Market on the Brewery District (my go-to grocery shop, btw) has a fairly sized deli space and so does the Safeway on Oliver Square. Both are smaller stores, by North American standards (Safeway is roughly the same size as other stores, but still not as big), dedicate a decent amount of space to deli and sit-in consumption (and a Starbuck, as basically every Safeway) and are always busy and, I would assume, profitable.

That said, one of the most attractive thing in the City Market, for me and quite a few others that I`ve met, is that it`s compact, quick to go through, even if you don`t know exactly what you`re looking for, you can browse through all of the aisles in 15 min or less, with a good selection of products in smaller quantities and very few "equal substitutes". It`s also very clean, organized and well kept, overall (things that are made easier by it`s size) and the deli space, although not big, is a welcome treat, especially in the Summer, when the patio is open.

When I lived in Rio, in one of the most dense neighborhoods not only in Brazil, but on Earth, where retail space is extremely limited, my go-to grocery shop has, probably, about half the square footage of the City Market in the Brewery District and, yet, had a much better selection of products and, I dare saying, more variety, which goes to show that you don`t need to have an infinite stock and lots of space to serve your customers well. Just good logistics, which I reckon is MUCH easier in Edmonton than in Rio, considering that Canada as a whole is a lot more organized than Brazil, in general (and Rio is probably the most chaotic and disorganized city I`ve ever been to), some creativity and good market knowledge (know what kind of products your customers want, how often they buy, etc...).
 
As a gen z here, I can't see grocery stores surviving my generation. None of my friends and I go to stores unless a last resort. All regular groceries are ordered and delivered/picked up or we use meal boxes.

I imagine "ghost kitchen"/Amazon warehouse models will replace a lot of grocery stores in the next 15 years. More efficient to own large warehouse space outside the city, make non attractive interiors with automated robots selecting items to pack boxes to be shipped to households.

Superstore in Toronto is testing meal boxes already.

So all that to say...I hope new stores are focused on experience, not just providing the necessities. If not, thatll be like building blockbusters in 2006.
Grocery stores are adapting to this and have been for awhile. Many stores, especially ones in urban areas, have a model that caters more to walk-up traffic may it be the lunchtime crowd or local residents. They are also looking at creating more 'experiential' stores. Irrespective of your own experiences grocery stores are rock solid and they won't go away any time soon.
 
Grocery stores are adapting to this and have been for awhile. Many stores, especially ones in urban areas, have a model that caters more to walk-up traffic may it be the lunchtime crowd or local residents. They are also looking at creating more 'experiential' stores. Irrespective of your own experiences grocery stores are rock solid and they won't go away any time soon.
Yeah, I agree. I don't think the grocery store brands will die. I think many will adapt though and new players may enter. The "fork" in retail right now that's killed the big box is you either need to go even bigger (i.e. online) and become an amazon/walmart, or you need to go smaller and cater more to experience and expertise (boutique).

I imagine grocery stores could see a similar split eventually...although they'll hold on much longer than the zellers, winners, bays, etc of the world. Online, warehouse-based, shipping of weekly food. (probably a mix of meal kits style and basics). Then smaller, local grocers that give unique experience, a more tasteful environment than a superstore/walmart vibe, and that are in denser/active transport areas.

I might be wrong! But that's my prediction. 😉


Most of my friends and I go into grocery stores in-person as much as we visit bank branches in person. Yet still there are many bank branches. Not sure who pays for them haha, but they exist. So I'd assume people use them. I think grocery (as we know it today) will be the same. People 40+ will keep using them out of habit. But young people who never enjoyed coupon clipping and endlessly searching in big stores, and crowded lineups...I don't see us converting to in-person ever.

I'd actually love to hear, who has never bought groceries online?
 

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