Car-Free Streets

[TAS]

How is 102 Avenue fine? It's literally the quietest, least active street in the core.

I am ALL for pedestrian 1st, but this simply does not make a lot of sense; with the only thing backwards being the reverse engineering of the cross-section.

And you think having one lane of vehicles travelling east for a couple of blocks where they can't stop or park but only drive on through is going to activate this street? The vision for 102 Ave here is for public and active transportation.

 

[JaayJR]

How is 102 Avenue fine? It's literally the quietest, least active street in the core.

I am ALL for pedestrian 1st, but this simply does not make a lot of sense; with the only thing backwards being the reverse engineering of the cross-section.

So whats the alternative? If 102nd ave doesn’t meet the standards, what other road could be sacrificed for people?
Not just a question for you, but for those who say open the road. I am aiming toward which avenue, since the streets can be connected throughout.

Of course the street is quiet, the LRT isn’t open yet. This wasn’t planned to close to cars until after it was built. But where is the first step for change?

 

[IanO]

I'm not sure 'sacrificed' is the right word, but 102 Avenue is far from low-hanging fruit and would take decades to transform.

Very few cities have really successful walking streets, but those that do have great bones to support them.

 

[archited]

^^^^ This statement is simply not true.

 

[TAS]

I'm not sure 'sacrificed' is the right word, but 102 Avenue is far from low-hanging fruit and would take decades to transform.

Very few cities have really successful walking streets, but those that do have great bones to support them.

It's not just a walking street. It is a public transportation right of way with multiple stops along it that will eventually have people going on/off and dispersing to various locations - Ice District, the library, Winspear, Citadel, the Museum Art Gallery, two parks, 104 street events, City Hall, Churchill Square events, the farmer's market, offices, hotels, residential, the YMCA, Norquest and more.

 

[itom987]

^ That is exactly what it already is, nice attempt at moving the goal post.

 

[ChazYEG]

^ That is exactly what it already is, nice attempt at moving the goal post.

But that is exactly the point. Converting (or better said, transforming) it into a shopping/dining destination, once the LRT is open, shouldn't take nearly as long, or be as hard, especially with the likely renovations of ECC. Will it take a while? yes, it will, but few streets in the city, if any, have the potential to succeed in this.

And there is the fact that 102 ave adds ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in terms of car mobility. It has been closed for the past what? 7 years? has anyone REALLY missed it as a traffic option?

Do we really need and/or want to be dedicating this space to cars? Think long term, who does it benefit?

 

[thommyjo]

How stupid! The argument is based on the position of the bike lanes vs the "vehicle space". How hard would it be to flip the two making for a larger pedestrian sidewalk and therefore more appealing people space. The added benefit is that it would also actually enhance bicycle activity in its relocated location. Administration wunderkinds showing the stuff they are made of once again! Good God this is frustratingly dumb!

Unfortunately the pavers are pretty permanent that they used. So you could definitely still do it, but it’ll look funny. They used the pavers to naturally show the lines and such for the bike lane vs car lane. Again, not impossible to switch them still, would just look messier. Sucks this wasn’t thought of more beforehand.

102ave from 109st to Churchill makes for a great pedestrian zone in the scope of DT. But it’ll take a long time for it to really get there. I’m torn because if you let cars back, it’s hard to remove later. And if you don’t declare it a pedestrian street, it won’t see developments towards that. But 104st makes way more sense at this point to focus on.

 

[thommyjo]

My windows face 102 ave. If I had to guestimate, any day that I have looked during "peak" day time times I could probably count on one hand the number of people I have seen walking on the street between the old Bay space and the old Holt's entrance.

Just because you close the street does not magically equal a good idea. There is nothing there to make it interesting to walk, there are no shops or patios or engaging street art. There is literally nothing down there to engage or attract walking and it shows by the lack of people I see on a daily basis.

Its another example of great idea, awful execution. And until there is an idea to activate that street (which I dont think is even possible given what is there) I don't see any benefits to having this street remained closed and hoping that does something beneficial for some reason.

I bike this route weekly and there’s multiple people on it just when I pass through it for 30secs. So idk when you’re looking. It’s definitely not busy, but it’s not much different than other streets downtown. And at the Churchill intersection with the mall and library, there’s nots of activity there that would be more impacted if there was a car lane being used.

 

[thommyjo]

Here’s some pics I got last spring before it was officially opened. Shows the pavers and the lines/design.

Moving the bikes to the traffic lane if definitely possible, just wastes the lines and markings. Which isn’t the end of the world, but for brand new infrastructure to already be “wrong” sort of sucks…

 

[archited]

It simply underscores the problem with City Planning. It's a relatively easy fix but it shouldn't have happened in the first place.

 

[IanO]

So we conveniently forget the years of public consultation, open houses, working groups?

 

[TAS]

And at the Churchill intersection with the mall and library, there’s nots of activity there that would be more impacted if there was a car lane being used.

You raise an interesting point.
This is a relatively busy area and the trains with people getting on and off aren't even running yet. Pedestrians crossing 102 Ave at several intersections have had an easy time time of it for the last several years - not having to wait for any traffic light - they could just cross 102 Ave and only had to watch for bikes.

On a cold day (or any day) will somebody be wanting to stand on the corner waiting to cross 102 Ave for one lane of vehicle traffic in one direction when it only takes a few seconds to walk across? I think it will be quite enticing for people just to cross if there are no cars coming - but they will also have to navigate trains and bikes going in each direction, too. And more often than not, there won't be trains coming, so I just wonder how people on foot will be treating these intersections when crossing 102 Ave. Wait or go if it's clear?

 

[archited]

No forgetting -- I simply don't believe in "public consultation", "open houses" or so-called "working groups" and the result here underscores the very reasons why -- a misguided result that should have never happened. If you want "public consultation" then send the public to a post-secondary program for 5 years; if you want "open houses" then elucidate the public with a well-founded solution arrived at by competent professionals; and if you want "working groups" then consider a professional design charrette where the group entails people who are tuned into the subject matter -- architects, engineers, urban planners, and industrial designers (all of them, not just some of them that pretend to know what they are doing). Mistakes like the wrong-headed decision to put a no-mans lane on the far side of a Bike Lane and pedestrian sidewalks where it works neither for vehicles nor pedestrians should serve as a lesson that PC, OH and WG does not work! Again, nothing could underscore this better than the design error illustrated here.

 

[itom987]

They did a nice job surfacing the street and you want to tear it up and redo it. You should have demanded it be done your way before it was built. Lesson learned for next time. Loosing the battle doesn't mean you lost the war. It would be wise to leave the road the way it was intended to see how it all works before making changes. All this complaining is wasting everyone's time and making you guys look as bad as city administration.