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Capital Line LRT

I just visited Century Park to check out Le Louvre, and it was pretty pleasant. Nice little coffee shop, commercial buildings and a grocery store nearby, etc. I don't think the TOD is more than 10 years away from being a relative success.

I was just in Richmond at the end of the line, and the entire area is actually just a quiet suburban neighborhood with a few brand new towers and a shopping mall. It doesn't take much to get momentum.
The problem is, as I've previously noted, not just the fact that the site still hasn't been built out twenty-two years after Heritage Mall closed. The issue is that the buildings that have been erected are mostly low-rise with significantly fewer floors and units than was originally envisioned and promised. Thus there are far fewer people living on the site, and capacity for far fewer, than the proposal. That's a failure.

Unless there is a secondary plan to start knocking down these relatively recently-built structures and replace them with much taller towers, what we've gotten is not what the community and city signed up for in the first place.

The tragedy is that this was not a redevelopment of an existing mall or the addition of a residential component to an ongoing shopping centre (such as has been suggested in the past for Southgate and WEM). Heritage Mall was completely razed and the site could be developed fully to a completely new vision. The fact that what we've gotten has been mostly a repeat of what's available lots of other places in the southwest is a tragedy. So much could have been done with the site. We didn't need more low-rise apartment buildings and yet another strip mall.
 
Not to be a downer, but arch bridges are not unique to Edmonton, they are popular around the world as they are the best option for lots of projects. In fact, there are bridges with a nearly identical design to the Walterdale Bridge in Serbia, Hungary, and Japan (and probably other places too). Edmonton is not unique in that way.
Not even 3 weeks ago I drove across that bridge in Osaka and thought to myself, "wow this thing looks a lot like the Walterdale bridge" 😂
 
The GC consortium should be confirmed real soon. PCL or Ledcor? I’m putting money on PCL getting it. Btw, drove by 23rd Ave and all the pre-construction activity is intense
 
I'm not in favour of TODs in Edmonton because it seems clear that in our experience they represent more wishful thinking than anything else. SkyTrain has been a catalyst for redevelopment and densification in the Lower Mainland, but the TODs here have grossly underwhelmed. As I've noted the Century Park development started off with exciting plans but never came close to the original vision. The Belvedere TOD was a massive failure. And both were in mature areas with very convenient LRT access. I highly doubt a TOD in the Gorman area is ever going to develop into anything significant, which is why I think routing the line the way they're proposing is a mistake.

I think you route the line where people have already proven that they want to be able to go, and in this case it should run past Manning Town Centre. LRT should serve destinations that are already popular rather than sites that may eventually develop into a destination decades into the future. As I've also noted elsewhere on this board, one of the strengths of Edmonton's LRT system is that it does hit a lot of key destinations like Southgate, the U of A, NAIT, MacEwan, Kingsway Mall and the Clareview shopping area. The Valley Line, for all its flaws, will hit MWTC, Grey Nuns, Bonnie Doon, Unity Square, Jasper Gates, Meadowlark, the Misericordia and WEM. There is also potential for the Valley Line to be extended west to the future Rec Centre and the Market at Lewis Estates, and south along 50th Street to Watt Common and RCSS Harvest Hills.

Okay, I'm genuinely curious about your past few comments. It totally get being frustrated that Edmonton's TOD projects have taken a relatively long time to fill out/had relatively slow progress thus far, but could you give more perspective on why you're so pessimistic about TOD in Edmonton? This city's just beginning its transition from a stroad-infested, low-density parking-lot city into something much better, and in my view growing pains like this (especially in a place where many people have a stake in maintaining the status quo) are inevitable. I don't see how Edmonton could be so different from almost all other cities that a well-proven urban planning concept can't work here? Is there another type of development pattern you have in mind that could work here?

I haven't been on this forum for a while, but I've seen a few of your other posts and you have good, reasonable takes on most other things, so I'm just a little confused I guess? 🤔
 
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God im glad I don't have to commute downtown anymore. Drove the 104ave section Friday night and the Stoney plain rd section Sunday. This is going to be shits for a few years.
 
God im glad I don't have to commute downtown anymore. Drove the 104ave section Friday night and the Stoney plain rd section Sunday. This is going to be shits for a few years.
Capital line? Or valley line?

It’s honestly not even that bad. And biking/transit is a great alternative that I think more people could utilize. I know people in Crestwood that work downtown and complained about the traffic this summer. Meanwhile my pregnant wife biked from nearby Crestwood to downtown in 15 minutes on her ebike, 20 on regular bike. Some people will never not drive, even when it’s the worst option.
 
God im glad I don't have to commute downtown anymore. Drove the 104ave section Friday night and the Stoney plain rd section Sunday. This is going to be shits for a few years.
I mean hey, a few years of shit for a functioning rapid transit system? Sounds good to me :cool:
 
Okay, I'm genuinely curious about your past few comments. It totally get being frustrated that Edmonton's TOD projects have taken a relatively long time to fill out/had relatively slow progress thus far, but could you give more perspective on why you're so pessimistic about TOD in Edmonton? This city's just beginning its transition from a stroad-infested, low-density parking-lot city into something much better, and in my view growing pains like this (especially in a place where many people have a stake in maintaining the status quo) are inevitable. I don't see how Edmonton could be so different from almost all other cities that a well-proven urban planning concept can't work here? Is there another type of development pattern you have in mind that could work here?

I haven't been on this forum for a while, but I've seen a few of your other posts and you have good, reasonable takes on most other things, so I'm just a little confused I guess? 🤔
I haven't been ignoring you, I was actually in Europe for a month and haven't been on the board. :)

I have always described myself as neither a pessimist nor an optimist, but a realist. I think we need to be honest about what we can hope to accomplish as a community, and much of what we have to go on is based on past performance. I believe that when municipal officials/business leaders/community leaders attempt to sell the public on a particular concept, and the concept ultimately fails or underwhelms, that breeds a cynicism among citizens that endangers future projects. I would rather undersell and overperform than the other way around.

It's not just transit. Think about Blatchford. Consider the glowing promises that were made to the community after the Muni was shut down and a development vision was drawn up. It was going to be a radically environmentally sustainable community with new technology, etc. The public was told that land sales were going to make a ton of money for the city. The public was told that Blatchford was going to inject major new life and vitality into the central city. Has any of that happened? To any significant extent? The original vision in terms of environmental sustainability has been radically scaled back, and Blatchford has become less and less of a model and more of just a run-of-the-mill brownfield redevelopment. And the area has not developed nearly as quickly or as profitably as projected, nor has it had the impact on the wider area that was expected. Even now we are being told that one of the LRT stations built as part of the Metro Line extension will not be needed for years.

I'm not saying we should walk away from Blatchford and bulldoze everything that's been built and make it into a public park. But I'm saying it SHOULD be a cautionary tale. When concepts are proposed to the community, we should be asking hard questions: is that realistic for Edmonton? Is there a reasonable chance of success? Or is a given project likely to underperform and disappoint for decades?

I'm a big believer in going with what is already proven to work rather than wishful thinking. I remember a few years back there was discussion on council about the pedway system. A couple of councillors came out against further expansion of the network, claiming that it sucked life away from ground level and made Edmonton a less walkable city, and that they felt connecting major buildings by pedway was actually a net negative for street life. This of course completely ignored the fact that for much of the year, outside on the street in the biting cold and wind is NOT where you'd want to be. Yes, street life and patios are lovely in June, July and August, but Edmonton is a winter city and hoping to stimulate hustle and bustle on city sidewalks in November or March by opposing pedways is just foolishness. Pedways have a proven track record, they're an asset to a winter city, they've proven themselves for decades, let's stick with what works instead of indulging in silly fantasy.

As far as TOD goes, as I said I don't think they've proven themselves over the many years now we've experimented with them. Century Park and Belvedere are miserable failures in which what was ultimately delivered bore little to no resemblance to the grand, dense, sustainable vision that was originally promised to the community. (And CP STILL isn't built out, decades later!) I would be ecstatic if CP had achieved the building heights, density and sustainability that were part of the original proposal, but the low-rise bait and switch we got is nothing short of a failure.

As I said before, Edmontonians have shown over the decades that they want rapid transit to run to post-secondary institutions, hospitals, major destinations and shopping malls (many of which happen to have bus transit centres already, providing convenient first and last mile connections). Run transit where people want to go, don't overthink it, and stop trying to sell the public on something they clearly don't want. If people want to be able to ride LRT to Manning Town Centre to shop at Canadian Tire and see a movie at Cineplex, then run the trains there instead of laying tracks to Gorman and hoping a few people might eventually, possibly, someday, potentially want to live there.
 
They're starting to develop the first phase of Gorman with a medium-density and mixed-use development on the southeast corner. I definitely think they prefer the chickens come before the egg going forward. Although Heritage Valley is needed now because of the park and ride component.
 
Not saying that it was a major factor but Covid did slow things down. The TOD idea is valid but I think we need developers that understand how to best take advantage of creating a TOD. Century Park has been built out so far with creating whats best for Procura, but perhaps not with a truly effective TOD in mind. I think if they did fully embrace the TOD they would have built their first buildings right next to the LRT not a couple blocks away.
 
I haven't been ignoring you, I was actually in Europe for a month and haven't been on the board. :)

I have always described myself as neither a pessimist nor an optimist, but a realist. I think we need to be honest about what we can hope to accomplish as a community, and much of what we have to go on is based on past performance. I believe that when municipal officials/business leaders/community leaders attempt to sell the public on a particular concept, and the concept ultimately fails or underwhelms, that breeds a cynicism among citizens that endangers future projects. I would rather undersell and overperform than the other way around.

It's not just transit. Think about Blatchford. Consider the glowing promises that were made to the community after the Muni was shut down and a development vision was drawn up. It was going to be a radically environmentally sustainable community with new technology, etc. The public was told that land sales were going to make a ton of money for the city. The public was told that Blatchford was going to inject major new life and vitality into the central city. Has any of that happened? To any significant extent? The original vision in terms of environmental sustainability has been radically scaled back, and Blatchford has become less and less of a model and more of just a run-of-the-mill brownfield redevelopment. And the area has not developed nearly as quickly or as profitably as projected, nor has it had the impact on the wider area that was expected. Even now we are being told that one of the LRT stations built as part of the Metro Line extension will not be needed for years.

I'm not saying we should walk away from Blatchford and bulldoze everything that's been built and make it into a public park. But I'm saying it SHOULD be a cautionary tale. When concepts are proposed to the community, we should be asking hard questions: is that realistic for Edmonton? Is there a reasonable chance of success? Or is a given project likely to underperform and disappoint for decades?

I'm a big believer in going with what is already proven to work rather than wishful thinking. I remember a few years back there was discussion on council about the pedway system. A couple of councillors came out against further expansion of the network, claiming that it sucked life away from ground level and made Edmonton a less walkable city, and that they felt connecting major buildings by pedway was actually a net negative for street life. This of course completely ignored the fact that for much of the year, outside on the street in the biting cold and wind is NOT where you'd want to be. Yes, street life and patios are lovely in June, July and August, but Edmonton is a winter city and hoping to stimulate hustle and bustle on city sidewalks in November or March by opposing pedways is just foolishness. Pedways have a proven track record, they're an asset to a winter city, they've proven themselves for decades, let's stick with what works instead of indulging in silly fantasy.

As far as TOD goes, as I said I don't think they've proven themselves over the many years now we've experimented with them. Century Park and Belvedere are miserable failures in which what was ultimately delivered bore little to no resemblance to the grand, dense, sustainable vision that was originally promised to the community. (And CP STILL isn't built out, decades later!) I would be ecstatic if CP had achieved the building heights, density and sustainability that were part of the original proposal, but the low-rise bait and switch we got is nothing short of a failure.

As I said before, Edmontonians have shown over the decades that they want rapid transit to run to post-secondary institutions, hospitals, major destinations and shopping malls (many of which happen to have bus transit centres already, providing convenient first and last mile connections). Run transit where people want to go, don't overthink it, and stop trying to sell the public on something they clearly don't want. If people want to be able to ride LRT to Manning Town Centre to shop at Canadian Tire and see a movie at Cineplex, then run the trains there instead of laying tracks to Gorman and hoping a few people might eventually, possibly, someday, potentially want to live there.

Hey it's all good, wasn't expecting response right away haha

I appreciate the explanation of your beliefs around this, and I can understand some of your gripes around "pie-in-the-sky" thinking. In general our city council and other large players in the urban development scene do have a tendency to overhype ideas as being new and exciting, when many other cities even in NA have been doing them for a long time, TOD included. I believe that Edmonton in general has suffered with feelings of inadequacy for along time with its state of interest and development relative to the other big Canadian cities, so maybe some of the "over-excitement" is a result of that somewhat.

I will say that I still don't see how TOD doesn't work. A few of these plans have taken years or even decades to pan out, sure, but most do unfortunately. These projects are large and complex, and in Canada and the U.S. specifically, when it comes to any master-planning that isn't the post-fordist suburb it can be cumbersome because we haven't developed that efficiency yet.
 
Not saying that it was a major factor but Covid did slow things down. The TOD idea is valid but I think we need developers that understand how to best take advantage of creating a TOD. Century Park has been built out so far with creating whats best for Procura, but perhaps not with a truly effective TOD in mind. I think if they did fully embrace the TOD they would have built their first buildings right next to the LRT not a couple blocks away.
I don't totally know how Procura thinks, but I recently went to a bar restaurant there for a gathering and took the LRT from downtown. Yes, I had to walk a couple blocks at the end, but I didn't find it too much. It still seemed fairly convenient and comfortable for me even though the day was a bit cooler, I was not outside too long.
 
I don't totally know how Procura thinks, but I recently went to a bar restaurant there for a gathering and took the LRT from downtown. Yes, I had to walk a couple blocks at the end, but I didn't find it too much. It still seemed fairly convenient and comfortable for me even though the day was a bit cooler, I was not outside too long.
And I'm not saying it's a very long distance but I suspect if they built right next to the station first it could have been better touted as a TOD. With Louvre there now Century park is definitely feeling a bit closer to the trains.
 

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