Capital Line LRT

[Yeggy]

Left turning is a MUCH WORSE issue, in general, than right on reds. Not long ago someone posted a statistic here, and over 50% of the traffic accidents in Edmonton come from these. If we got rid of every single one of them, we'd be better off (not to mention that they're bad for traffic flow, and occupy more road space than necessary in many places where they could be replaced by better uses, such as bike lanes).


I honestly think you're just happy being a contrarian. if we CAN improve something, at a reasonable cost, with minimal disruption, WHY NOT DO IT?

I am not sure what ya mean re left hand turns…. We seem to be agreeing.

Impeding the left hand turns to save right hand on red is folly… but yet that was a major consideration that went j to going with centre alignment of the trains.

I dont see how i can be contrarian when I literally a) agree with you, or you me. b) support modern urban lrt development that says our current system was not
built for people but for engineering ease, and there are literal reports from many north American cities that i have formed that opinion from.

Im not sure what you are saying…

 

[ChazYEG]

I am not sure what ya mean re left hand turns…. We seem to be agreeing.

Right on reds is also dumb. Left Turns and Right on reds are a North American abomination and should be ended throughout (alongside slip lanes that cross bike lanes, or in places with higher pedestrian presence), we are in agreement on this.

I dont see how i can be contrarian when I literally a) agree with you, or you me. b) support modern urban lrt development that says our current system was not
built for people but for engineering ease, and there are literal reports from many north American cities that i have formed that opinion from.

a) we disagree, more often than not.
b) you literally just countered an argument for streamlining our future connection to the airport simply because other cities didn't do it.

 

[Yeggy]

Right on reds is also dumb. Left Turns and Right on reds are a North American abomination and should be ended throughout (alongside slip lanes that cross bike lanes, or in places with higher pedestrian presence), we are in agreement on this.


a) we disagree, more often than not.
b) you literally just countered an argument for streamlining our future connection to the airport simply because other cities didn't do it.

So spend billions of dollars making a line that ignores every community it goes through for a fast connection to an airport?

im confused (not really you just arent making sense ie no left hand turns? I mean wanna talk about contrarian to traffic flow… everywhere)

Sp please tell me how a train, with priority access through intersections, is sped up by a tunnel?

how many of these tunnels
will be needed to save a 5 minuets and where is the recognition that Vancouver is slowing down its “fast train to the airport” because they realized they screwed up by not giving communities access to the system.

Very confusing, you are. Conflictons are strong with this one.

 

[ChazYEG]

im confused (not really you just arent making sense ie no left hand turns? I mean wanna talk about contrarian to traffic flow… everywhere)

Left turns are a plague: they're dangerous, make traffic flow worse and can take up road space that could be put to better use. Right on reds follow closely behind. They both create unnecessary points of conflict AND have the potential to disrupt traffic flow more than improve it.

Sp please tell me how a train, with priority access through intersections, is sped up by a tunnel?

how many of these tunnels
will be needed to save a 5 minuets and where is the recognition that Vancouver is slowing down its “fast train to the airport” because they realized they screwed up by not giving communities access to the system.

Grade separation inherently increases the speed of the trains, because they can approach the stations faster, mostly and, in turn, it can increase the maximum speed in which that train can run through the line. You can still have all of the planned stops and serve the communities the train gos through (did you hear ANYONE proposing that we don't? Sorry, I must have missed it in the last 4+ years posting here...). Having the train travel at faster speeds, especially over a lengthy trip to the airport, could shave off a good 10-15 minutes of the travel time to DT, which would be massive for attracting people to the LRT (which is part of the argument people have been making to support adding crossing gates in the Valley Line).

Another point is: as much as everyone here has a very strong, and positive, opinion of transit (especially trains), and believes that they should be a priority for the city, we cannot ignore the reality of our city, especially when we're talking about suburban areas. Driving will NEVER be second to transit in places like Ellerslie, Heritage Valley and Summerside, for example, and part of not getting as much pushback from the city council members from these areas (and potentially others, as we look to expand further into other areas of the city) is also conceding that SOME infrastructure that does not disrupt traffic is needed, especially in some key access routes, such as Ellerslie Rd.

As a transit and active transportation supporter, I hate hearing from suburbanites that "the city is in a war against cars" and things like this, and I also hate when people want to de-fund transit expansion because "we don't need it, everyone can drive" or "stop trying to change our way of life with your woke agenda". I have to concede, however, that if every time we build mass transit we just say "screw drivers and their big bad trucks and SUVs" and give no consideration to traffic, we're just going to end up in a more contentious environment where, at the end of the day, nothing will get done.

 

[Foolworm]

Tunnelling has historically been very problematic in edmonton.

This is not true from my knowledge of Edmonton's tunnelling history.

As for Ellerslie, If we can have an LRT at grade all around Bonnie Doon, whyte and DT… it can go on grade at Ellerslie. We need to point out that it was the Tunnelling, Brides and elevations that caused all (95+%) of the delays on the existing systems.

The tunnels and guideways may be the cause of 95+% of delays during construction, but the at-grade intersections are the cause of 95+% of delays during operations.

Of course it's possible to cross Ellerslie at-grade, but for high traffic intersections it is advisable to grade separate and this is definitely one of them.

 

[Yeggy]

There were problems with each and every tunnel (as well as cut and cover). From Leakey roofs to bank stability issues. getting it across the river was problematic, getting it above ground was problematic and the Tunnel for the new line was behind schedule, (we just never noticed cause they started on it very early and ran so very late)

 

[Yeggy]

This is not true from my knowledge of Edmonton's tunnelling history.



The tunnels and guideways may be the cause of 95+% of delays during construction, but the at-grade intersections are the cause of 95+% of delays during operations.

Of course it's possible to cross Ellerslie at-grade, but for high traffic intersections it is advisable to grade separate and this is definitely one of them.

The only traffic intersection we are grade separating on the valley valley line arewhitemud, Groat Road, and 170 st. Argyll does have separation but the line had to go up somewhere for wager, same with the flyover into Wagner heading North.

Ellerslie is not comparable to 170 st. above and beyond them being black roads.

 

[TravellingChris]

So spend billions of dollars making a line that ignores every community it goes through for a fast connection to an airport?

im confused (not really you just arent making sense ie no left hand turns? I mean wanna talk about contrarian to traffic flow… everywhere)

Sp please tell me how a train, with priority access through intersections, is sped up by a tunnel?

how many of these tunnels
will be needed to save a 5 minuets and where is the recognition that Vancouver is slowing down its “fast train to the airport” because they realized they screwed up by not giving communities access to the system.

Very confusing, you are. Conflictons are strong with this one.

It's possible to both "give communities access to the system" and to tunnel or elevate where appropriate.

Ottawa's LRT has had its share of problems (they clearly picked the wrong vehicle, and the partnership was in over its head) but the route itself is excellent. It is entirely grade-separated, tunnels through downtown and goes underground through other areas where it makes sense (underground at the St Laurent Shopping Centre and also in the western extension at Sherbourne and New Orchard). This eliminates conflict with motor vehicles and allows higher frequencies and more predictable travel times. And yes, I know there is a myriad of problems with the system in terms of the vehicles being poorly suited to Ottawa's climate and unreliable, but this has nothing to do with grade separation or tunneling.

It's also worth noting that Vancouver's Broadway extension to SkyTrain is entirely underground (with the exception of a brief descending guideway west of VCC-Clark) and no one in the Lower Mainland is worried that this will fail to have proper access for the neighbourhoods it serves.

 

[Foolworm]

The only traffic intersection we are grade separating on the valley line are whitemud, Groat Road, and 170 st. Argyll does have separation but the line had to go up somewhere for wager, same with the flyover into Wagner heading North.

Ellerslie is not comparable to 170 st. above and beyond them being black roads.

I think the 170 St crossing could have just as likely had ended up at-grade. When the full Valley line is open, it would be interesting to compare the 87 Ave guideway stretch with 83 St at Bonnie Doon.

As I have stated earlier, Ellerslie is comparable to 23 Ave which is getting grade separated.

 

[TravellingChris]

The only traffic intersection we are grade separating on the valley valley line arewhitemud, Groat Road, and 170 st. Argyll does have separation but the line had to go up somewhere for wager, same with the flyover into Wagner heading North.

Ellerslie is not comparable to 170 st. above and beyond them being black roads.

Where Edmonton has failed to grade separate because it cut corners to save money and because city councils at the time wanted to be cute, there have been years of problems as a result. University Avenue, where the city cheaped out and failed to either run the LRT underground or in a trench, suffers from traffic backlogs due to train movements and the gates constantly being down. The Metro Line crossings around Kingsway Mall, where city planners insisted there would not be major issues from a failure to elevate, have been a disaster.

Yes, Ellerslie is not 170 Street NOW...but the area is not fully built out yet. Traffic volume will only grow as the areas west and south continue to expand.

The failure to elevate at Ellerslie will be another mistake the community will live to regret. Why are city bureaucrats and councillors so unintelligent that they cannot understand that this is legacy infrastructure? This is not a short-term project or one-time event where cutting corners will only be felt for a short time. When investing in infrastructure which is intended to serve a growing city for decades, you NEVER cut corners to save money.

It's like building a house where you intend to live for decades. Are you going to cut corners and lower costs in the short term, only to have to either perform expensive fixes in a few years' time when your cost-cutting proves short-sighted, or to live with the daily frustrations caused by substandard workmanship and design?

 

[TravellingChris]

I think the 170 St crossing could have just as likely had ended up at-grade. When the full Valley line is open, it would be interesting to compare the 87 Ave guideway stretch with 83 St at Bonnie Doon.

As I have stated earlier, Ellerslie is comparable to 23 Ave which is getting grade separated.

We're going to regret not elevating the Valley Line SE at Bonnie Doon and building a proper Davies-style station (instead of the bus shelter they have now). If and when the Bonnie Doon site is redeveloped with additional density and housing, the current line and "station" (bus stop) will prove utterly inadequate.

 

[TravellingChris]

This is not true from my knowledge of Edmonton's tunnelling history.



The tunnels and guideways may be the cause of 95+% of delays during construction, but the at-grade intersections are the cause of 95+% of delays during operations.

Of course it's possible to cross Ellerslie at-grade, but for high traffic intersections it is advisable to grade separate and this is definitely one of them.

Consider Vancouver's Canada Line. The cut-and-cover tunnel build was hugely disruptive on Cambie Street when the line was being constructed (which is why a somewhat different method is being used for the Broadway extension to the MIllennium Line).

But since the line opened, how disruptive has it been to motor vehicle traffic? How many accidents have there been from trains hitting motor vehicles? How have driving times been impacted by delays caused by the trains? The line has zero negative effect on street traffic, because it runs underground much of the way, and is elevated virtually everywhere else. (There is a short section at-grade adjacent to the airport but it has no impact on drivers' routes.)

 

[ChazYEG]

We're going to regret not elevating the Valley Line SE at Bonnie Doon and building a proper Davies-style station (instead of the bus shelter they have now). If and when the Bonnie Doon site is redeveloped with additional density and housing, the current line and "station" (bus stop) will prove utterly inadequate.

It's funny we both agree with it being inadequate, but not on the solution.
I think having it elevated there would have been a horrible idea, for reasons I think I've already pointed out to you before.

I would've preferred if they had trenched 82nd Ave under it. Probably a more complex and disruptive, but far less intrusive after the finished product is done.

Granted, it's also a matter o personal preference, in this case. You (like many here) seem to like the idea of as many elevated sections as humanly possible. Maybe it's the Vancouver influence, and familiarity.

I really don't like elevated guideways unless there's no other, better, solution at a reasonable cost, of course. In an ideal "sandbox" world, with infinite resources, I would have all of the rail underground, with actual metro trains, but I do realize it's unreasonably expensive to tunnel, nowadays, in a lot of circumstances. To me, the second best option is trenching (either the rail line or the crossing road) wherever possible (Ellerslie Rd is a great example).

 

[Foolworm]

There were problems with each and every tunnel (as well as cut and cover). From Leakey roofs to bank stability issues. getting it across the river was problematic, getting it above ground was problematic and the Tunnel for the new line was behind schedule, (we just never noticed cause they started on it very early and ran so very late)

Untrue, the Valley Line tunnel broke through on schedule. It was the concrete lining that had issues (if CBC's reporting is accurate), and the project had issues with concrete in general. Not tunnels.

Edmonton's downtown LRT tunnel is well built and functional (it needs repairs, but it is also almost forty years old). The city has suitable ground conditions for digging and has a long history of tunnelling, from the first coal mine tunnels that were dug in its formative years.

 

[Yeggy]

Yes, Ellerslie is not 170 Street NOW...but the area is not fully built out yet. Traffic volume will only grow as the areas west and south continue to expand.

The failure to elevate at Ellerslie will be another mistake the community will live to regret. Why are city bureaucrats and councillors so unintelligent that they cannot understand that this is legacy infrastructure? This is not a short-term project or one-time event where cutting corners will only be felt for a short time. When investing in infrastructure which is intended to serve a growing city for decades, you NEVER cut corners to save money.

It's like building a house where you intend to live for decades. Are you going to cut corners and lower costs in the short term, only to have to either perform expensive fixes in a few years' time when your cost-cutting proves short-sighted, or to live with the daily frustrations caused by substandard workmanship and design?

Ellerslie will never be 170st. Ellerslie is currently 4 lanes max 6 wide. 170st is 9 lanes.

Ellerslie runs parallel to, and mere blocks from, a multilane divided freeway.

23 ave has 8 lanes of traffic intersecting with 7 lanes of traffic. Again NOT comparable to the Ellerslie situation, nor will it ever be.