Valley Line LRT | TransEd/Marigold | City of Edmonton

[thommyjo]

Reading news stories, there seems to be a lot of confusion. Coun. Rutherford was quoted in the story BASE linked to above as saying there were 100,000 riders per day on VLSE which is way off and not true.

I found that there were 223,000 'monthly' riders in April 2024 or about 7,300 per day. Ridership dropped in May - probably because post secondary schools are out. Currently, Valley Line Southeast represents around 13 per cent of total 'LRT ridership'.

So 4% of total ETS ridership seems right.

Yeah. Your numbers here are accurate.

The numbers to watch is that daily use. Would love to see it passing 10k by end of this school year, but maybe that’s not realistic.

Remember that the city projected 30,000 daily users upon opening. Growing to over 40k by 2040. So that’s a lot of uncaptured potential they assumed would use the train who haven’t yet.

I think the west line opening will actually help the SE line a lot though. Norquest, Macewan; and even 124th will draw SE riders who currently might have a faster bus or drive.

 

[Blizzard]

I found that there were 223,000 'monthly' riders in April 2024 or about 7,300 per day.

I'm looking at the APC report right now and the numbers are about 50% higher than what you're saying.

The numbers to watch is that daily use. Would love to see it passing 10k by end of this school year, but maybe that’s not realistic.

We hit that in February and again, currently about 50% higher.

I think the west line opening will actually help the SE line a lot though. Norquest, Macewan; and even 124th will draw SE riders who currently might have a faster bus or drive.

Yes, currently a lot of riders in the southeast head to Meadows for the 500X to get to Norquest and MacEwan. Hence the need for artics there.

Of course, everything I'm saying falls apart if we're talking about unique riders. I can only see the raw number of people getting on and off transit.

 

[Gus Haynes]

I think the west line opening will actually help the SE line a lot though. Norquest, Macewan; and even 124th will draw SE riders who currently might have a faster bus or drive.

The Valley Line is just a stump right now. When this thing goes to WEM and Lewis Estates, it's really gonna do numbers, I'd bet.

 

[TAS]

I'm looking at the APC report right now and the numbers are about 50% higher than what you're saying.


We hit that in February and again, currently about 50% higher.


Yes, currently a lot of riders in the southeast head to Meadows for the 500X to get to Norquest and MacEwan. Hence the need for artics there.

Of course, everything I'm saying falls apart if we're talking about unique riders. I can only see the raw number of people getting on and off transit.

Haha there are so many numbers flying around that don't seem to add up based on what ETS official is saying, what a city councillor is saying etc.

If you have the APC, it would be great if you could share link or screen shot.

@Blizzard is VLSE getting 4% of all ridership? And if so, if there were 5.3 million rides across ETS in May, that should mean 6,839 trips per day for VLSE. What do the May figures you have show?

 

[trevorhayden]

Valley line will fail if 500x is not terminated at Davies Station or rerouted to end at U of A.

 

[whattheheck]

And wasn't the VL supposed to spur a wave of TOD's?! Groundbreaking was in 2016; eight years ago. And hardly anything. And don't give me, 'but the pandemic!'

The city has grown by huge numbers, population-wise, and yet, developers don't see the incentive to build anything meaningful near a VL station. Why? Oh, I guess Bonnie Doon has upgraded its parking lot. lol

Hollyrood went from a concrete tower, to now a wood frame building going up, lol

Wasn't an 'urban' lrt supposed to be the holy grail?!

 

[Blizzard]

If you have the APC, it would be great if you could share link or screen shot.

is VLSE getting 4% of all ridership? And if so, if there were 5.3 million rides across ETS in May, that should mean 6,839 trips per day for VLSE. What do the May figures you have show?

I will refrain from sharing any direct links or screenshots because I like my job. You'll just have to take the word of an internet stranger.

I don't know the source of the "4% of all ridership" number. I see 6.3 million rides in May from just bus APCs. But again this is just raw APC data, it doesn't factor for transfers, unique riders, etc.

Valley line will fail if 500x is not terminated at Davies Station or rerouted to end at U of A.

That would be a political nightmare and a non-starter at this point. Suffice to say that Valley Line is not considered a failure in light of post-pandemic ridership trends and social failings beyond the control of transit that are being experienced across North America.

 

[Kosy123]

Yeah I genuinely don't get the talk of the Valley Line being a failure. Has it been off to a slow start? Sure, but as a daily commuter on it, it does get busy at peak hours and is immensely appreciated. TOD's while slower, have popped up, and doesn't count for the skinnies, garage suites and rowhomes that are popping up 5-10 min away from these stops and even along the route.

The only gripe I've had is that frequency should be upped when there's special events like Oilers games. Waiting for a train for 15 min after games isn't the best way to show people that this is effective.

A bit unfair to expect mass density in these areas this fast when Nanaimo and 29th Avenue in Vancouver have barely changed since these stations were put up lol

 

[EdwardEdm]

I don't know the source of the "4% of all ridership" number. I see 6.3 million rides in May from just bus APCs. But again this is just raw APC data, it doesn't factor for transfers, unique riders, etc.

Of course, not every bus has an APC.

Since you say that it is raw data, is that 6.3 million activations? Or is that 6.3 million riders, factoring in each rider is going to activate the APC twice per vehicle (therefore 12.6 million activations)?

Are false activations possible from the very common practice of passengers hanging out at the rear doors? It would be negligible, but there would also be activations everytime drivers enter and leave the bus.

 

[Blizzard]

Of course, not every bus has an APC.

Since you say that it is raw data, is that 6.3 million activations? Or is that 6.3 million riders, factoring in each rider is going to activate the APC twice per vehicle (therefore 12.6 million activations)?

Are false activations possible from the very common practice of passengers hanging out at the rear doors? It would be negligible, but there would also be activations everytime drivers enter and leave the bus.

This is boardings only data. The APCs are pretty good at distinguishing between boardings and alightings. False activations are possible but rare - the rider must completely cross the threshold of the door. If anything the APCs have a higher chance of missing a rider than double counting them due to boarding characteristics. Large groups of people forcing the doors during peak periods and especially at schools may undercount passengers by as much as 10% because the APCs are unable to distinguish one person from another. This isn't seen as much in alightings as people have to filter from the aisle of the bus through the doors. Another common source of missed passengers is parents with children or strollers, where the child/stroller sticks close to the parents side and the APC sees it as one continuous being thereby counting the parent and child/stroller as one rider.

 

[thommyjo]

And wasn't the VL supposed to spur a wave of TOD's?! Groundbreaking was in 2016; eight years ago. And hardly anything. And don't give me, 'but the pandemic!'

The city has grown by huge numbers, population-wise, and yet, developers don't see the incentive to build anything meaningful near a VL station. Why? Oh, I guess Bonnie Doon has upgraded its parking lot. lol

Hollyrood went from a concrete tower, to now a wood frame building going up, lol

Wasn't an 'urban' lrt supposed to be the holy grail?!

I think it’s a mix. TOD hasn’t taken off like we want, but we also have a lot of undeveloped land in central areas eating up demand for what TOD sites would essentially provide. And we also have a lot of affordable housing near stations.

TOD works so well in Vancouver cause it’s 1.9-5mil houses nearby, no undeveloped land in the city, and so a 500-900k 1 or 2 bedroom is a great option.

You can’t build and sell new condos for 200k for TODs, but full houses are only 400k just around the corner from the train. So it’s a tough equation.

We also need to remember that mainly skytrain stops saw 0 TOD for 5-15 years. And some stations still haven’t. Even with all the constraints of land and astronomical prices. The valley line gives us good options for the next 20 years as we “hopefully” build up and in more than our.

 

[fromyeg]

I shared this before (from the Rezoning Applications Map), but the TOD is coming.

Also this:

Address: 2331 - 66 STREET NW
Planner Description: This application proposes to amend the Direct Control Zone for 'Area D' (the north east corner) of the the Mill Woods Town Centre to: - Increase the maximum height in Area D from 60 m to 75 m (an approximate increase in height of 4 storeys); and - Allow for development of ground-oriented residential uses at ground level fronting the north, west, and east with increased setbacks. Administrative amendments to the Direct Control Zone are also proposed to align the zone with the new uses, standards and regulations of the new Zoning Bylaw 20001. As part of this application, an associated amendment to the Mill Woods Town Centre Area Redevelopment Plan is proposed to align with the proposed rezoning.
Status: In Review

And yes, there is currently one midrise going up by Holyrood and one by Strathearn.

I’d say these are all encouraging signs, and my two young kids loved riding the train to the downtown library so there is also that.

 

[Habibfazil]

This is boardings only data. The APCs are pretty good at distinguishing between boardings and alightings. False activations are possible but rare - the rider must completely cross the threshold of the door. If anything the APCs have a higher chance of missing a rider than double counting them due to boarding characteristics. Large groups of people forcing the doors during peak periods and especially at schools may undercount passengers by as much as 10% because the APCs are unable to distinguish one person from another. This isn't seen as much in alightings as people have to filter from the aisle of the bus through the doors. Another common source of missed passengers is parents with children or strollers, where the child/stroller sticks close to the parents side and the APC sees it as one continuous being thereby counting the parent and child/stroller as one rider.

would you know how those riders using tickets and bus passes or even transfers are accounted for?

 

[EdwardEdm]

would you know how those riders using tickets and bus passes or even transfers are accounted for?

APC= Automatic Passenger Counter
APC is agnostic to the fare media used. There are sensors above doors on the Flexity's, and on buses they are seperate modules at the top of the doors. They are standard now and are included on all new buses. I believe all XD's, Vicinity's, and Proterra's have them 6016 should as well. I don't believe the LFR's were delivered with them, but it seems like the 4800's have them. Maybe all LFR's. And then it's hit and miss with the LF's. Some do. Some don't... More don't than do though.

 

[The_Cat]

I drove along the LRT route west of 142 Street and saw the following:
(1) Progress on the eastbound lane of Stony Plain Road.
(2) Construction of the orange concrete walls of the LRT stations at 134 Street and 182 Street.
(3) The overhead viaduct between 165 Street and West Edmonton Mall largely complete.
(4) Traffic moved to the east side of Meadowlark Road to facilitate construction on the west side.
(5) Construction of the track beds west of 182 Street.