Valley Line LRT/ Valley Line West | ?m | ?s | City of Edmonton

[quit]

Regularly happens and would be very important for a variety of reasons.

This must be a goal/deadline for us.

Regularly happens here or elsewhere? Reasons such as what?

World cup investment total for the city is only projected to be $40-$50M and they haven't announced that we actually hosting games yet. I get that people want it to happen, but building it into the timeline at this point is ambitious given the lack of clarity.

 

[quit]

Can someone who understands construction explain to me why we can't get more workers on projects like this and accelerate them? I understand this isn't asia and our government systems affect it. But I dont understand the hundreds of kilometers of high speed rail being build through mountains in China in the next 5 years while we build 1 line of 20kms. Is it purely financial?

Pretty broad statement - I think there are plenty of variables here that aren't in play in China. Cost of labour, safety regulations, seasonal construction, urban vs rural construction with infrastructure considerations come to mind as key things. In addition, you have to build those people in to the project management from the get go to ensure they are doing something.

 

[IanO]

Regularly happens here or elsewhere? Reasons such as what?

World cup investment total for the city is only projected to be $40-$50M and they haven't announced that we actually hosting games yet. I get that people want it to happen, but building it into the timeline at this point is ambitious given the lack of clarity.

Major investments (direct or indirectly related) to major events/hosting are often aligned to:

1. minimize disruption
2. ensure efficient movement of the influx of thousands or tens of thousands
3. often as part of the bid requirements or commitments
4. it just makes sense

It would be idiotic to not have it up and running for FIFA 2026.

 

[quit]

Major investments (direct or indirectly related) to major events/hosting are often aligned to:

1. minimize disruption
2. ensure efficient movement of the influx of thousands or tens of thousands
3. often as part of the bid requirements or commitments
4. it just makes sense

It would be idiotic to not have it up and running for FIFA 2026.

I think I would want cost analysis before committing to accelerate a $2.6B project off of a maybe - a maybe that was only supposed to be a $40-$50M investment.

 

[IanO]

We have been planning it for years/decades and have known about FIFA for sometime now to find alignment.

Do you throw money at something if it is unreasonable, no, but host cities of major events find pragmatic ways to deliver things like this in time.

 

[tkoe_]

Can someone who understands construction explain to me why we can't get more workers on projects like this and accelerate them? I understand this isn't asia and our government systems affect it. But I dont understand the hundreds of kilometers of high speed rail being build through mountains in China in the next 5 years while we build 1 line of 20kms. Is it purely financial?

Not sure about the construction side of things, but part of the issue is government funding. When governments announce funding for infrastructure projects like this, they don't actually give a billion dollars to the city at once. Often money is phased over several years or it doesn't start flowing until some future date. I imagine that if the city had access to all the money at once they could front-end load some of the work to speed things up, but that isn't typically how these large projects are funded.

 

[BFitzStructEng]

I wonder if Stony Plain Road from 124 Street to 139 Street/102 Avenue could be closed down for reconstruction. If EPCOR is replacing utilities, perhaps the road could be rebuilt at the same time and the Groat/SPR bridge could be replaced.

Seeing the words "Groat Bridge replaced" must be triggering for a LOT of people

 

[The_Cat]

Looks like TransEd is getting closer to re-routing traffic at Roper Road and 75 Street:

Minor Lane Closure, 75 Street – TransEd Valley Line LRT

transedlrt.ca

 

[_Citizen_Dane_]

Some pictures from today, mostly from the Strathearn section of the line.
Starting at 85th Street and 95th Avenue:

Strathearn Station:

Connors Road:

Tawatinâ Bridge:

 

[Yossarian]

Can someone who understands construction explain to me why we can't get more workers on projects like this and accelerate them? I understand this isn't asia and our government systems affect it. But I dont understand the hundreds of kilometers of high speed rail being build through mountains in China in the next 5 years while we build 1 line of 20kms. Is it purely financial?

From my own experience, there are a number of factors at play.
1) Labour costs are very local, and in Alberta they are significantly higher than many other places in the world
2) Material costs, especially on design-build jobs, are out of your control so labour costs are one of the few ways to manage costs
3) More labour doesn't always translate 1:1 to more production. So you could put more bodies on a task, double your labour costs, but only increase production 1.5x, in effect losing you money
4) Urban environments, especially older ones, have underground utilities that look like someone upended a bowl of cooked spaghetti onto your drawings. Add to that as-builts of those lines often being missing or flat out wrong, and you spend a lot more time on mitigation around them
5) Governments here will often have very strict rules about minimizing disruptions to road traffic and local residents (for good reason) that add complexity to scheduling that can really handcuff you on certain critical pieces of infrastructure.

 

[ChazYEG]

From my own experience, there are a number of factors at play.
1) Labour costs are very local, and in Alberta they are significantly higher than many other places in the world
2) Material costs, especially on design-build jobs, are out of your control so labour costs are one of the few ways to manage costs
3) More labour doesn't always translate 1:1 to more production. So you could put more bodies on a task, double your labour costs, but only increase production 1.5x, in effect losing you money
4) Urban environments, especially older ones, have underground utilities that look like someone upended a bowl of cooked spaghetti onto your drawings. Add to that as-builts of those lines often being missing or flat out wrong, and you spend a lot more time on mitigation around them
5) Governments here will often have very strict rules about minimizing disruptions to road traffic and local residents (for good reason) that add complexity to scheduling that can really handcuff you on certain critical pieces of infrastructure.

The only thing I would disagree, partially, is your third point. While directly, your costs are increasing at a rate that is higher than your output, when we talk about construction of something that will generate revenue once completed, if you have it built faster you'll start making money faster.
Also, in the particular case of a rail line, you can double your output by doubling the labour at least one, if you start building from two ends to meet in the middle. For underground lines that is usually more complicated, but for a surface line, like the VL West, would be entirely possible.
That said, all of your other points are valid and, alone, would already constitute enough reason for things to be slower than in places like China.

I would also add in that comparing to China is not a fair comparison for several other reasons, including, but not limited to: the level of control that the government has over planning, funding and operating any of the major infrastructure projects. As bureaucratic as the communist government might be, having control over every aspect (or almost), makes for quicker decision making. Also, their funding capabilities are basically infinite, by any normal standard.

 

[IanO]

In other cities/countries we also often see 18-24 sites with 2-3 shifts, whereas we usually permit 730-10 unless special permission is requested with a single shift typically with more or less normal hours.

 

[TAS]

Seems like a stretch to accelerate the largest infrastructure project in the city's history for three or four max world cup games.

I think phrasing it as just 3 or 4 cup games is underplaying the actual amount of days that fans/tourists from different parts of the world would be here that summer, which is reflected in the economic boost events like this are projected to provide.

Estimates show the event could generate more than $450 million in economic benefits for the region and the province.

I think FIFA is finalizing the host cities later this year, so hopefully if we are finalized as a host, work can be accelerated a bit to get that section completed - it would be a shame to miss this opportunity by 8-10 months or so given it is still 5 years out.

 

[ChazYEG]

I think phrasing it as just 3 or 4 cup games is underplaying the actual amount of days that fans/tourists from different parts of the world would be here that summer, which is reflected in the economic boost events like this are projected to provide.

Estimates show the event could generate more than $450 million in economic benefits for the region and the province.

I think FIFA is finalizing the host cities later this year, so hopefully if we are finalized as a host, work can be accelerated a bit to get that section completed - it would be a shame to miss this opportunity by 8-10 months or so given it is still 5 years out.

$450 million, DIRECTLY and just during the event and the few months before and that is the baseline. If we take into consideration the exposure that it creates, all of the income generated by the preparation, the impact in the tourism that will last for years to come.

That plus the chance of us being chose by one of the major national teams to be their training centre, which usually starts bringing people roughly 2 months prior to the event and creates hype about the city with months in advance...

Not to mention that we could end up hosting up to 5 games, including a round-of-sixteen one because Montreal is possibly walking way from hosting, which expands our chances of hosting a historical game that will make people remember it (and the city) for ages.

It is also important to note how, in general, people in North America seem to downplay the relevance and economic potential of Football (no, I refuse to call it soccer!!!) because it is not as popular here. It is the most popular sport on Earth and the Men`s World Cup is the most watched sports event. Its revenue and exposure potential are MAYBE paralleled by the Summer Olympics and that is just because the Olympics take place in a single city.

 

[quit]

$450 million, DIRECTLY and just during the event and the few months before and that is the baseline. If we take into consideration the exposure that it creates, all of the income generated by the preparation, the impact in the tourism that will last for years to come.

That plus the chance of us being chose by one of the major national teams to be their training centre, which usually starts bringing people roughly 2 months prior to the event and creates hype about the city with months in advance...

Not to mention that we could end up hosting up to 5 games, including a round-of-sixteen one because Montreal is possibly walking way from hosting, which expands our chances of hosting a historical game that will make people remember it (and the city) for ages.

It is also important to note how, in general, people in North America seem to downplay the relevance and economic potential of Football (no, I refuse to call it soccer!!!) because it is not as popular here. It is the most popular sport on Earth and the Men`s World Cup is the most watched sports event. Its revenue and exposure potential are MAYBE paralleled by the Summer Olympics and that is just because the Olympics take place in a single city.

Where is the report that states $450M? I've seen it in news articles, but haven't seen the official report/breakdown. Back in 2018, the original estimate was $170M.

$450M erodes pretty quickly when you are speeding up a $2.6B infrastructure project. Some of the reports I have read on the costing required of hosting say that it does not include security costs. We all know how that went for Vancouver in the 2010 Olympics. I think the primary issue I have is that there doesn't seem to be detailed costing for Edmonton hosting (likely because it a. isn't complete yet or b. isn't public). The issue of hosting large sporting events such as FIFA and/or the Olympics, is the cost normally balloons.

It is fine for people to be excited at the prospect of hosting; however, that shouldn't exclude the public from seeing the business case/financials to understand what type of due diligence was done. Too often, reports come out close to the event and/or afterward when enormous amounts of money have already been spent.