General Infill Discussion

[ADob]

I don't know if that's a fair assessment. There are plenty of Cree words that are pronounceable; ipiihkoohkanipiaohtsi, sadly, is not. Admitting that is in no way deriding reconciliation. The choice feels more performative than practical, and when it comes to place names, we have to expect some level of practicality.

 

[archited]

One has to practice saying ipiihkoohkanipiaohtsi a dozen times or so daily in order to gain proficiency to blab it out in normal conversation -- reminds me of the "Mares eat oats" song.

 

[TAS]

I definitely find Wihkwentowin easy to say now but I practiced for a bit.
I put it on par to Saskatchewan, now.

But I agree a couple of ward names could have been chosen that are a bit easier to assimilate and would have helped bring more people along.

 

[ADob]

Wikwentowin, Tawatina, Kahasiniskak are all fine and dandy, although I tend to get my diacritics messed up.

 

[policyenthusiast]

Wikwentowin, Tawatina, Kahasiniskak are all fine and dandy, although I tend to get my diacritics messed up.

Wihkwentowin is a bit hard to spell, but pronunciation is fine. I had no issue with that name change, although it was confusing that it seemed like they got part of the way through rebranding to "Unity" before pivoting.

Supported by the fact that the previous 3 comments mentioning the name all spelled it differently.

 

[ADob]

Ah, yes, I did misspell it. Guess it's not just the diacritics.

 

[SarcasticMarmot]

I think it's important to add to this discussion that the ward names were not arbitrarily chosen by the City. Indigenous leaders reached out with concerns about the previously proposed names, and an all matriarchal panel ended up being chosen to work on picking the names based on place, theme, and the cultures of Edmonton. Each name was chosen for very specific reasons. The names were then gifted to the City in ceremony. The gifting of names in ceremony is an important honor and a core value for much of indigenous culture, to turn our back on that gift would be deeply insulting.

Gifting tradition | Stories | Why Edmonton

Explore how Edmonton embraced Indigenous culture by renaming its 12 municipal wards with traditional names, thanks to the efforts of a dedicated committee of Indigenous women leaders. Learn about the meaningful process behind these names, which honour the rich history and traditions of First...

why.edmonton.ca

Personally, I think focusing on ward names was a bit of an odd choice as wards get redrawn periodically and the public tends not to know what ward they live in. But at the same time, if we had done such a process with Highways or communities I'm sure the complaints would be a whole lot louder. It's a bit like the English complaining about Welsh place names in Wales. It's hard for us to pronounce, but the languages predate our existence on this land. The vast majority of place names in Edmonton are in English or other settler languages. Is it the worst thing to make the effort to learn a few names in Indigenous languages?

 

[ADob]

Thanks for the background, that's very interesting! And it definitely puts a different spin on the whole conversation.

 

[David A]

Not just us, this sounds fairly familiar

There's a growing backlash against the outsized, 'boxy' apartment blocks being built in BC​

MSN

 

[policyenthusiast]

I doubt this is about unit counts. This building is ugly ugly. No wonder the neighbor is selling.

 

[David A]

No, it isn't about unit counts directly. However, one part of the problem here is size, which is related to the number of units allowed.

Sadly, I have also seen as ugly or uglier here. I felt the article did a good job explaining why some of this construction is so bad in general and really its the same issue here.

 

[Seamusmuldrew]

I think it's important to add to this discussion that the ward names were not arbitrarily chosen by the City. Indigenous leaders reached out with concerns about the previously proposed names, and an all matriarchal panel ended up being chosen to work on picking the names based on place, theme, and the cultures of Edmonton. Each name was chosen for very specific reasons. The names were then gifted to the City in ceremony. The gifting of names in ceremony is an important honor and a core value for much of indigenous culture, to turn our back on that gift would be deeply insulting.

Gifting tradition | Stories | Why Edmonton

Explore how Edmonton embraced Indigenous culture by renaming its 12 municipal wards with traditional names, thanks to the efforts of a dedicated committee of Indigenous women leaders. Learn about the meaningful process behind these names, which honour the rich history and traditions of First...

why.edmonton.ca

Personally, I think focusing on ward names was a bit of an odd choice as wards get redrawn periodically and the public tends not to know what ward they live in. But at the same time, if we had done such a process with Highways or communities I'm sure the complaints would be a whole lot louder. It's a bit like the English complaining about Welsh place names in Wales. It's hard for us to pronounce, but the languages predate our existence on this land. The vast majority of place names in Edmonton are in English or other settler languages. Is it the worst thing to make the effort to learn a few names in Indigenous languages?

I incorrectly assumed this discussion was happening with some awareness that this was the case. That’s genuinely my fault, and I apologize. Thank you @SarcasticMarmot for adding this really important context.

This is kind of where my previous comment about deriding reconciliation efforts comes from. These names come from a deliberate effort of linguistic reconciliation, so when people claim that it’s ineffective reconciliation simply because they don’t want to even try pronouncing the words, or that it’s just pointless virtue signalling, I see that as derision considering the full context.

ipiihkoohkanipiaohtsi isn’t correctly pronounceable if you never try to find out how to pronounce it. Same goes for Desrochers for non-French speakers, Muttart for most people still, Van Vliet for many who think it’s French, and others. These may seem pronounceable because they’re shorter words, but in reality so many people are pronouncing them incorrectly. Somehow nobody is outraged about the use of those names.

I hope the added context softens up some people’s perspective on the ward names. Anyways, back to infill.

 

[David A]

Well that the names did not come from anyone in politics does explain why consideration for pronunciation and easier understanding in other languages was not a factor or priority.

But hey, its only democracy its not that important. I suspect this disconnect between our wards and voters is one reason for a very low voter turn out in Edmonton.

Actually, I can pronounce and spell Desrochers fairly well even with my poor French because of the linguistic similarities between the languages and Muttart is even easier.

However, if people can't handle them, then they are really just going to just give up when they encounter ipiihkoohkanipiaohtsi, which is what they are doing.

 

[Didama]

I doubt this is about unit counts. This building is ugly ugly. No wonder the neighbor is selling.

View attachment 707427

Please don't shoot me, but I actually like this (depending on the finishes)

 

[Tropical]

Please don't shoot me, but I actually like this (depending on the finishes)

(...I do too)