News   Apr 03, 2020
 9.2K     3 
News   Apr 02, 2020
 10K     0 
News   Apr 02, 2020
 3.4K     0 

Downtown Real Estate

I'd rather spend grant money first on new construction and buildings first and office conversions last tbh. I get that there's a property tax uplift for lower office vacancy rates, but the amount of money Calgary is throwing at conversions for the units they're getting seem underwhelming. I get it's a different problem and we have a glut of parking and empty lots that makes it easier for us to focus on new builds, but cost-benefit for tax dollars seems better for new builds?

So far for office conversions, we're getting:
  • Phipps Mckinnon Conversion. (100 units)
  • Financial Building Conversion (33 units)
  • McKenney Building Conversion (33 units)
  • CN Tower Conversion (344 units)
  • The Standard on Jasper Conversion (???)
  • WSP Place Conversion (???)
and possibly
  • Highfield Place Conversion
Edmonton was encouraging and doing residential conversions downtown decades ago, before it was even thought of in Calgary, and actually we still are. Although not with the emergency level of public money that they are having to put in now in response to an office vacancy rate that is still considerably higher than ours. I have to laugh if they think they discovered this great idea, when in fact it has been happening elsewhere for a long time.

However, it is better not to focus only on conversions. I also feel new building will more more attractive, successful and at a lower cost. It will also help fill in some of those empty lots we still seem to have downtown
 
I don't think we should take any pleasure in Calgary's challenges for the delta between the two cities is now a grand canyon and they are not looking back.
Agreed, It's just me providing some levity to all things great and mighty in YYC when their DT is struggling as bad as us, if not worse than us...
 
Edmonton was encouraging and doing residential conversions downtown decades ago, before it was even thought of in Calgary, and actually we still are. Although not with the emergency level of public money that they are having to put in now in response to an office vacancy rate that is still considerably higher than ours. I have to laugh if they think they discovered this great idea, when in fact it has been happening elsewhere for a long time.

However, it is better not to focus only on conversions. I also feel new building will more more attractive, successful and at a lower cost. It will also help fill in some of those empty lots we still seem to have downtown
Yeah, I feel like we're all happy with how Edmonton is doing conversions without shelling out millions of public dollars, and leaving these incentives for new builds. I feel like it won't be long before this movement starts paying off big time. As good as some conversions might be, purpose built residential tends to be substantially better quality, and I feel like that might end up being a net positive, even if it means we don't get as many shiny towers. I would honestly much rather Edmonton go the Europe way and have low and mid-rise high density that has good human scale and gives us more complete streets, and save the towers for the odd hotel and new office building, or a few residentials in the CBD and along main roads (Jasper Ave).
 
commerce-2-jpg.207224
 
Maybe now is the time to consider the second tower, but as a mixed-use hotel and residential. It's an ideal location and well connected.

I'm OK with this as long as the existing businesses (e.g. Icon, LUX, GoodLife Fitness) are not impacted. Retaining the historic CIBC building goes without saying. I am wondering if a hotel lobby and drop-off area will be a good fit along 101 St.
 
Hopefully this doesn't sidetrack the thread, but as a Calgarian, I wanted to weigh in on the conversation regarding the funding for office conversions. There's seems to be a fair bit of critisim around it, but there are a few things worth pointing out.

1) For Edmonton, I agree that it wouldn't make sense to fund conversions. Edmonton putting funding towards new builds on empty lots makes sense, and IMO is a good use of funds. For Calgary, IMO funding conversions makes sense. In the past 10 years, 15,000 units have been built in Calgary's downtown, with 2,200 currently u/c and another 1,100 breaking ground in the next coupe of months. New units aren't an issue. There's always a constant stream of them coming on line.

2) It's not a case of having to choose one method over the other. Both cities are doing what makes sense, but also both methods can be done concurrently. Edmonton has done conversions without public funding, Calgary has done new builds without public funding.

3) Of Calgary's 2,600 conversion units (completed or currently being converted), about 1/3 are not using public funding. In light of this, should the city do more funding to conversions? That's difficult to say, but I believe the initial funding got the ball rolling and now many of the more recent conversions aren't using the funding.

IMHO, the conversion program has been a success. I'm not just saying that as more Calgary booster-ism, but more than there isn't really a downside. 2,800 added units, with another 1,200 planned (The total breakout of the 4,000 units) some of the conversions have been non-residential, such as the UofC architecture school moving into the former Nexen building, also two buildings have been converted into a hotel, and another one is being converted into a hostel. Perhaps the biggest benefit of all, is that almost of all of the conversions are in the CBD, and it's changing the ratio of office to residential, in an area that was heavily office.

Isn't that just how YYC divy's up their HAF bucks? Let them turn derelict towers from the 60's and 70's into apartment buildings that no one will live in. We get brand new buildings with our HAF bucks while they give their ego's a boost and "dumby down their office vacancy rates" to make their DT numbers look better. Now with Cenovus buying MEG - watch out MEG workers in their MEG building - gone. Conoco will be down to a few warm bodies. CNRL is abandoning their "flagship" buildings in Banker's Hall #2 and Dome and Home towers and moving into an old Shell building built in the 70's - all the while giving up half of their pre-existing office space. I'm telling you, if YYC did NOT convert these buildings - ouch!
We're also getting plenty of new residential buildings ;) It's not a one or the other situation.

To your point about the office oil company mergers etc.., yes, the mergers are decreasing the number of office users, but this isn't a concern at all, it's exactly what Calgary urbanists want. Shuffles and mergers keep happening and companies migrate to the newer buildings leaving the older ones to be converted, or have the space taken up by non-oil and gas companies (IT and Fintech companies have been taking some of that space).
As it stands AA space is at around 17% vacancy, and AAA space is at 10%, which has left high vacancy in the Class B and C market, and those are the buildings finding the alternate uses.
 
Last edited:
Hopefully this doesn't sidetrack the thread, but as a Calgarian, I wanted to weigh in on the conversation regarding the funding for office conversions. There's seems to be a fair bit of critisim around it, but there are a few things worth pointing out.

1) For Edmonton, I agree that it wouldn't make sense to fund conversions. Edmonton putting funding towards new builds on empty lots makes sense, and IMO is a good use of funds. For Calgary, IMO funding conversions makes sense. In the past 10 years, 15,000 units have been built in Calgary's downtown, with 2,200 currently u/c and another 1,100 breaking ground in the next coupe of months. New units aren't an issue. There's always a constant stream of them coming on line.

2) It's not a case of having to choose one method over the other. Both cities are doing what makes sense, but also both methods can be done concurrently. Edmonton has done conversions without public funding, Calgary has done new builds without public funding.

3) Of Calgary's 2,600 conversion units (completed or currently being converted), about 1/3 are not using public funding. In light of this, should the city do more funding to conversions? That's difficult to say, but I believe the initial funding got the ball rolling and now many of the more recent conversions aren't using the funding.

IMHO, the conversion program has been a success. I'm not just saying that as more Calgary booster-ism, but more than there isn't really a downside. 2,800 added units, with another 1,200 planned (The total breakout of the 4,000 units) some of the conversions have been non-residential, such as the UofC architecture school moving into the former Nexen building, also two buildings have been converted into a hotel, and another one is being converted into a hostel. Perhaps the biggest benefit of all, is that almost of all of the conversions are in the CBD, and it's changing the ratio of office to residential, in an area that was heavily office.


We're also getting plenty of new residential buildings ;) It's not a one or the other situation.

To your point about the office oil company mergers etc.., yes, the mergers are decreasing the number of office users, but this isn't a concern at all, it's exactly what Calgary urbanists want. Shuffles and mergers keep happening and companies migrate to the newer buildings leaving the older ones to be converted, or have the space taken up by non-oil and gas companies (IT and Fintech companies have been taking some of that space).
As it stands AA space is at around 17% vacancy, and AAA space is at 10%, which has left high vacancy in the Class B and C market, and those are the buildings finding the alternate uses.
I completely agree, the approach Calgary is taking for office conversions makes total sense for its situation and Edmonton's likewise. IMO hotel is probably a better conversion of office space than other residential.

I am actually a bit surprised that also hasn't happened yet in Edmonton, given there have been so few new hotels downtown here over the last several decades.

Educational institutions can also be a good conversion. We have a bit of that here too, but the U of A Enterprise space while showing some recent signs of life, in seems in particular still seems under utilized.
 
I completely agree, the approach Calgary is taking for office conversions makes total sense for its situation and Edmonton's likewise. IMO hotel is probably a better conversion of office space than other residential.

I am actually a bit surprised that also hasn't happened yet in Edmonton, given there have been so few new hotels downtown here over the last several decades.

Educational institutions can also be a good conversion. We have a bit of that here too, but the U of A Enterprise space while showing some recent signs of life, in seems in particular still seems under utilized.
Agreed. Hotels are always a good add. a conversion, plus another one or two new ones thrown into the mix.
 
Maybe now is the time to consider the second tower, but as a mixed-use hotel and residential. It's an ideal location and well connected.
CIBC still owns the site, correct? Knowing Quadreal, the owners of Commerce Place, they'd have effectively zero interest in taking this on. That said, development of the CIBC parcel would certainly benefit from some form of mutually-beneficial shared service agreements.
 
A few updates. A rent-to-own company from Ontario is coming to Edmonton, with plans to buy a large amount of our affordable homes and then sell them at a premium through a rent-to-own model. Appreciation of 5% annually is added regardless of market shifts.

A private equity fund (I think it's called Twenty8 capital) is buying up majority interests in Edmonton condo corporations which are struggling to maintain fiscal health. They can use the majority interest to force the remaining owners to sell, even at a loss. They can also dissolve the condo corporation (after liquidating the held capital) and turn it into rentals. This is mostly happening with low-rises and in Downtown, from capital being redirected out of Toronto and Vancouver, and into Edmonton and Winnipeg.

Downtown's overall market is still in a decline (or more optimistically, stable), as of Q3.
View attachment 703187

Mark my words, in 3 years we will lament the loss of the current prices you see in Edmonton's market. Many more Edmonton residents will be tenants of Ontario landlords, and it will be much harder to own a home in the City as a young professional. I am concerned, and I don't expect any legislation will come forward to stop the change on the horizon.
Where do I sign up. 🤣🤣
 

Back
Top