The Parks | 146.91m | 45s | 35s | 13s | Pangman | Hariri Pontarini

[constance_chlore]

New builds like this and public amenities like warehouse park will contribute toward increased economic activity and foot traffic in this area. That will serve to deter shady activity in this area and will help legitimate businesses to thrive. Empty parking lots on the other hand...

Yeah, "eyes on the street" isn't everything but it is something.

 

[_urbanite]

New builds like this and public amenities like warehouse park will contribute toward increased economic activity and foot traffic in this area. That will serve to deter shady activity in this area and will help legitimate businesses to thrive. Empty parking lots on the other hand...

Vagrants doing shady things would rather not be in an empty parking lot where everyone can see them, actually. They'd rather be in back alleys in the nooks and crannies where it's harder to be seen, which is why many of them chose those areas instead.

Spend some time working in property management managing downtown assets and you'll see what I mean.

 

[Tropical]

There's a logic to blaming poor and vulnerable people for societal ills instead of folks with money, power and influence.

It's just that the logic is fascist.

 

[SarcasticMarmot]

Vagrants doing shady things would rather not be in an empty parking lot where everyone can see them, actually. They'd rather be in back alleys in the nooks and crannies where it's harder to be seen, which is why many of them chose those areas instead.

Spend some time working in property management managing downtown assets and you'll see what I mean.

Or to put the same thought in a different perspective, people on the street with no place of their own would rather find nooks and crannies where they can get the only privacy they experience in their day and maybe some shelter from the elements.

And I have been a property manager in the core of both Edmonton and Vancouver. I know the frustration of having to deal with the messes/confrontational people. One of my worst days was having to kick someone out who was sleeping in our entrance way and having them throw their pee bottle at me.

It's both true that it's not fair that these issues fall on private individuals, and at the same time these are hurting people trying to survive.

 

[thommyjo]

There's a logic to blaming poor and vulnerable people for societal ills instead of folks with money, power and influence.

It's just that the logic is fascist.

Ah yes. None of those people are criminals, rapists, abusive drug dealers, pimps, or people with freewill who have made poor choices.

We gotta stop making blanket assumptions that all homeless people and drug users have 0 responsibility for their situations. Yes, many come from broken families and traumatic experiences. But many people in those circumstances still don’t go on to become human traffickers and fent dealers. The people that do, are criminals who must be treated as such in hopes that they seek out an alternative future. Defending them is beyond comprehension and simply performative compassion, not reality.

 

[MacLac]

Or to put the same thought in a different perspective, people on the street with no place of their own would rather find nooks and crannies where they can get the only privacy they experience in their day and maybe some shelter from the elements.

And I have been a property manager in the core of both Edmonton and Vancouver. I know the frustration of having to deal with the messes/confrontational people. One of my worst days was having to kick someone out who was sleeping in our entrance way and having them throw their pee bottle at me.

It's both true that it's not fair that these issues fall on private individuals, and at the same time these are hurting people trying to survive.

 

[roe_]

Ah yes. None of those people are criminals, rapists, abusive drug dealers, pimps, or people with freewill who have made poor choices.

We gotta stop making blanket assumptions that all homeless people and drug users have 0 responsibility for their situations. Yes, many come from broken families and traumatic experiences. But many people in those circumstances still don’t go on to become human traffickers and fent dealers. The people that do, are criminals who must be treated as such in hopes that they seek out an alternative future. Defending them is beyond comprehension and simply performative compassion, not reality.

This makes me think of a friend who rented a room out to someone with FASD that had nowhere else to go. Her heart was in the right place, but ultimately it didn't work out because he had problems being impulsive and not understanding the potential consequences of his actions. Due to his condition he was not able to make informed decisions and really should have been in supervised accommodations. A desire for people to experience the consequences of their own poor decisions isn't really a solution because it misses all sorts of underlying issues.

 

[constance_chlore]

Talking about free will and blame seems like a diversion here. Yeah, people make decisions, but unless you grew up in poverty you can't tell me you wouldn't make those same decisions.

A lot of people's thinking about the homeless amounts to "I wish they weren't here." Well, they are. And we can increase social supports that keep people from falling into addiction, homelessness, etc. and help at least some of them get out... or we can keep playing an endless game of whack-a-mole.

 

[inclusion]

This makes me think of a friend who rented a room out to someone with FASD that had nowhere else to go. Her heart was in the right place, but ultimately it didn't work out because he had problems being impulsive and not understanding the potential consequences of his actions. Due to his condition he was not able to make informed decisions and really should have been in supervised accommodations. A desire for people to experience the consequences of their own poor decisions isn't really a solution because it misses all sorts of underlying issues.

Indeed.

There is a ton of research on FASD, a lot of it from Alberta, including the Institute of Health Economics (consensus statement) here in Edmonton that shows a disproportionate amount of individuals with FASD interact with the justice and correctional systems relative to those in the general population. "In 2011/12, it cost an average of $114,000 per year per prisoner in federal prison, much more than it costs to provide similar services - justice or otherwise - in the community. Several studies suggest 10-25% of prisoners have FASD, some push that much higher because of low diagnosis rates of FASD (must confirm birth parent drank - hard to do if the mom is dead or missing). When this conference took place, jury heard that "The jury heard evidence about a cross-sectoral program in Alberta that supports people with FASD in the community for costs below $5,000 per person served per year or $1.63 per capita, a figure that is far below correctional costs".

Throwing around statements to treat them all like criminals and that they should understand their actions and be able to make decisions like the rest of us is missing a lot of context about those living with disabilities that are homeless. You and I understand that stealing a loaf of bread is likely to result in us being arrested. Better yet, we also understand that punching a police officer that is cuffing us for stealing the loaf of bread will result in even more consequences. Not having the literal part of the brain that helps you understand consequences makes it incredibly difficult to make decisions that result in a better future when they don't even know how to manage money or not steal things.

On the contrary, we need to look at the homeless population and consider that a very high proportion of them can't make decisions on their own without wraparound supports instead of thinking of sending them the way of the correctional system as the first stop. The consequences of doing so are huge and expensive. I realize that empathy for those that are homeless is at an all time low given the state of our City; however, that doesn't mean you should toss out critical thinking altogether.

Perhaps questioning why these people have FASD in the first place would be a good place to start? Could it be that settlers opened up liquor stores on reserves 50 years ago without any plan on the downstream effects of doing so? Its much easier to say that the majority of homeless people should just know what they are doing and treat them as criminals just as its super easy to say that street level retail only makes sense in Edmonton and that pedways are bad without considering the fact that there are seniors and disabled people that should have the same right to access the City as able bodied people. It is incredibly disheartening to read the entitlement and ignorance on this board on a regular basis. I had to make an account to post this in hopes that people rethink some of their opinions and maybe approach issues with more empathy in the future.

 

[Tropical]

Indeed.

There is a ton of research on FASD, a lot of it from Alberta, including the Institute of Health Economics (consensus statement) here in Edmonton that shows a disproportionate amount of individuals with FASD interact with the justice and correctional systems relative to those in the general population. "In 2011/12, it cost an average of $114,000 per year per prisoner in federal prison, much more than it costs to provide similar services - justice or otherwise - in the community. Several studies suggest 10-25% of prisoners have FASD, some push that much higher because of low diagnosis rates of FASD (must confirm birth parent drank - hard to do if the mom is dead or missing). When this conference took place, jury heard that "The jury heard evidence about a cross-sectoral program in Alberta that supports people with FASD in the community for costs below $5,000 per person served per year or $1.63 per capita, a figure that is far below correctional costs".

Throwing around statements to treat them all like criminals and that they should understand their actions and be able to make decisions like the rest of us is missing a lot of context about those living with disabilities that are homeless. You and I understand that stealing a loaf of bread is likely to result in us being arrested. Better yet, we also understand that punching a police officer that is cuffing us for stealing the loaf of bread will result in even more consequences. Not having the literal part of the brain that helps you understand consequences makes it incredibly difficult to make decisions that result in a better future when they don't even know how to manage money or not steal things.

On the contrary, we need to look at the homeless population and consider that a very high proportion of them can't make decisions on their own without wraparound supports instead of thinking of sending them the way of the correctional system as the first stop. The consequences of doing so are huge and expensive. I realize that empathy for those that are homeless is at an all time low given the state of our City; however, that doesn't mean you should toss out critical thinking altogether.

Perhaps questioning why these people have FASD in the first place would be a good place to start? Could it be that settlers opened up liquor stores on reserves 50 years ago without any plan on the downstream effects of doing so? Its much easier to say that the majority of homeless people should just know what they are doing and treat them as criminals just as its super easy to say that street level retail only makes sense in Edmonton and that pedways are bad without considering the fact that there are seniors and disabled people that should have the same right to access the City as able bodied people. It is incredibly disheartening to read the entitlement and ignorance on this board on a regular basis. I had to make an account to post this in hopes that people rethink some of their opinions and maybe approach issues with more empathy in the future.

And this is best written and well thought out post of the week (if not the year).

Well done.

 

[cmd uw]

"On the contrary, we need to look at the homeless population and consider that a very high proportion of them can't make decisions on their own without wraparound supports instead of thinking of sending them the way of the correctional system as the first stop. The consequences of doing so are huge and expensive. I realize that empathy for those that are homeless is at an all time low given the state of our City; however, that doesn't mean you should toss out critical thinking altogether."

Bolded text - I do agree. Putting 'homeless' in prisons will do nothing. They require other types of support. Being in general public is not going to help and poses a greater risk to their wellbeing. And there's a difference between homeless and thugs.

 

[thommyjo]

Bolded text - I do agree. Putting 'homeless' in prisons will do nothing. They require other types of support. Being in general public is not going to help and poses a greater risk to their wellbeing. And there's a difference between homeless and thugs.

100%. Many people are homeless due to family trauma, disabilities, systemic injustices. And one of the worst things we can do is allow them to be preyed on by criminals. And yes, many of those criminals also have reasonings for their life choices that we can have compassion for. But we also shouldn’t accept their behaviour when it severely hurts others. And many low level criminals target those with unstable housing. Whether for prostitution, selling drugs, petty theft, gang activity, etc.

When we don’t acknowledge that some of the people on the streets are bad people with bad intentions, it hurts our ability to help the others who desire improvement and with the right supports are capable of a much better life.

Too much policing/imprisonment isn’t the solution, and too much compassion, just let them do whatever they want in public or just throw millions into housing without the right precautions, doesn’t work either.

Part of the generational trauma that continues these issues is us allowing drug dealers to target vulnerable people, whose lives then spiral, which leaves their children at severe risk of the same cycles. I’ve got multiple friends with adopted children who I bet really wish more had been done to stop the drug dealer that took advantage of their parents to the point of their OD. Letting the criminals hang around the Stanley Milner, LRT stations, encampments, supportive housing, etc only hurts the people we are trying to help.