Edmonton Real Estate Market

[IanO]

Thanks for those; it's always interesting to hear from folks visiting other cities.

I was there in mid-August and had a very different experience. Downtown was BUSTLING, lots of new towers and had an energy I had not felt in awhile.

 

[David A]

DT Vancouver last weekend - a few observations:
1.) stayed DT for Fri and Sat nights - DT was DEAD at night including Granville, except Robson was packed….makes sense…restaurant hub.
2.) the 6 highrises condo towers in our plain view over looking Stanley park - 5/6 had ZERO lights on all weekend. Coincidence that their owners were all out of town at the same time? not likely. Or should I say “ghost owners.”
3.) Hotel on West Hastings was a small fortune and appeared to be very very slow. Retail around the core….easily 30% were empty storefronts.
4.) Homeless Zombies were invading WEST Hastings now….uh oh!
5.) Brand new, what appeared to be the tallest tower in YVR was completely empty. Is ongoing tenant fit ups occurring? West Hastings and Thurlow I think?
6.) Joe Fortes - anyone been? I’ve been meaning to take my non-seafood eating family members there for years. It appeared to very slow both nights - is it’s reputation still good?

I don’t pretend to be a YVR expert, although I am at their airport at least 4 times/month. I have no bias on this city, just observations.

I have to wonder how many people that have secondary properties that they occasionally use are hiding under the radar and hoping not to get caught.

Hotels there often seem hard to get and expensive. With the recent airbnb restrictions I suspect this will become even more of a problem for visitors.

Vancouver has seemed to generally managed to keep their less fortunate in a small ghetto like area more so than elsewhere, not sure if that is really a positive thing though.

 

[Gronk!]

I was at Joe Fortes last time I was in Vancouver about 2 years ago, and it was packed. I don't know what it's like these days though.

 

[dunno]

DT Vancouver last weekend - a few observations:
1.) stayed DT for Fri and Sat nights - DT was DEAD at night including Granville, except Robson was packed….makes sense…restaurant hub.
2.) the 6 highrises condo towers in our plain view over looking Stanley park - 5/6 had ZERO lights on all weekend. Coincidence that their owners were all out of town at the same time? not likely. Or should I say “ghost owners.”
3.) Hotel on West Hastings was a small fortune and appeared to be very very slow. Retail around the core….easily 30% were empty storefronts.
4.) Homeless Zombies were invading WEST Hastings now….uh oh!
5.) Brand new, what appeared to be the tallest tower in YVR was completely empty. Is ongoing tenant fit ups occurring? West Hastings and Thurlow I think?
6.) Joe Fortes - anyone been? I’ve been meaning to take my non-seafood eating family members there for years. It appeared to very slow both nights - is it’s reputation still good?

I don’t pretend to be a YVR expert, although I am at their airport at least 4 times/month. I have no bias on this city, just observations.

Not quite sure what this has to do with the Edmonton real estate market, but my times on the peninsula in the summer showed a much more vibrant core than you're portraying. Didn't feel very overwhelmed with unhoused outside the DTES, streets downtown like Granville, Burrard, Hastings, Water, and Robson were fairly busy.

 

[David A]

Not quite sure what this has to do with the Edmonton real estate market, but my times on the peninsula in the summer showed a much more vibrant core than you're portraying. Didn't feel very overwhelmed with unhoused outside the DTES, streets downtown like Granville, Burrard, Hastings, Water, and Robson were fairly busy.

I don't totally get what are sometimes directly or indirectly negative comparisons with elsewhere. I know that the grass can seem greener elsewhere and a person doesn't always see all the local problems if are visiting.

I'm not sure if it is meant to shame us into improving, but as far as I can tell the suburban mentality here is fairly resistant or impervious to that. Also, Edmonton isn't going to ever be Vancouver because of significant difference in size, climate and geography. So in my opinion, if you're really pining for Vancouver and think its great, go there, if you can afford it. Otherwise focus on making here better.

 

[ChazYEG]

Not quite sure what this has to do with the Edmonton real estate market, but my times on the peninsula in the summer showed a much more vibrant core than you're portraying. Didn't feel very overwhelmed with unhoused outside the DTES, streets downtown like Granville, Burrard, Hastings, Water, and Robson were fairly busy.

I think it is helpful to take a little bit of our self-deprecation syndrome.

My experience with the back-and-forth between Edmonton and Vancouver, and spending about 1 week every month there, for the past 2 years, kind of falls in the middle of what you both said.

Granville is usually busy during the day, as it still has a bunch of offices, and Thursday-Saturday at night. It has been getting increasingly sketchy, however, and less busy, over the past couple of years.
Hastings is busy during the day (office crowd) and dead at night
Robson is busy, but I know many a restaurant in Yaletown that are struggling quite a lot, and the situation has been deteriorating quite a lot. One of the most cited reasons is, surprise surprise, safety.
Burrard is definitely the brightest spot in Vancouver, IMO. It has remained busy and apparently impervious to the degrading safety situation.

A lot of the businesses I used to go to, when I first started going to Vancouver regularly, have closed. Some more have opened, but the overall feel is that there are more empty storefronts now than there were in 2021. One explanation I've hear from a lot of people is that, after the COVID incentives went away a lot of businesses started to really struggle, as demand didn't exactly make up for the difference. That coupled with the high inflation and the lower influx of tourists, compared to pre-COVID, has brought a bunch of these places down.

Office vacancy is high. Proportionally, might be lower than Edmonton's, but the sheer amount of vacant space is somewhat scary. Opposite from their residential market, their office market is seeing leases go down so that landlords can lease up, or even just hold on to/renew current leases.

Generally, I don't feel much safer in DT Vancouver than I feel in DT Edmonton. I see, and hear about, just as much crime, if not more, and the homeless population has been increasing steadily and, with it, problems related to aggressive drug users, etc. The biggest difference in this perception of safety has to do with the fact that Vancouver has a disproportionally high residential population, so at any given time, there are more "regular" people out and about. Also, the issues with drug use in public spaces, property damage and aggressive behaviour is just as bad.

 

[ChazYEG]

Complimentary to my post above:

We don't have a directly comparable region to Burrard, so I'll skip this one. Maybe in a decade or so ICE District can be this comparable.

Whyte Ave, and Old Strathcona in general, feel healthier than Yaletown, IMO. There have been more new businesses opening in Old Strathcona/Garneau than Yaletown, and the trend here is upwards, where there it feels like a downwards movement. Also, I just as safe and comfortable on Whyte than I do on Davies, Robson or Hamilton.

Same can be said for Oliver/124 St. Aesthetically-wise, it still has a long way to go to be even remotely comparable, especially Jasper and 124st, but the general feel is much more pleasant, and the area here is notably trending up.

Downtown, in general, has a long way to go here, but I honestly believe that the addition of the Falcon and The Parks, along with the Warehouse District Park will elevate our downtown a whole order of magnitude and create some momentum. The amount of units added by these alone could mean adding upwards of 20% of Downtown's current population, and that's not even counting Stationlands and other smaller things, like the conversions (Peak Tower and Williams Hall). ICE District is also slowly coming on its own (and residential units are leasing up), and I think we'll see a few more proposals come up in the area soon, that will help carry that momentum.

I still believe that investing in safety (especially to change the perception, and not because of the widespread myth that DT has become an extended version of The Purge) and improving the infrastructure are absolutely necessary to help things move forward. I also think there should be a more concerted effort by all of the entities involved in DT betterment to attract entertainment offers, like a bowling alley, a Rec Room, a mid-sized music venue and more clubs, to help attract people DT outside of business hours.

 

[Kosy123]

I think it is helpful to take a little bit of our self-deprecation syndrome.

My experience with the back-and-forth between Edmonton and Vancouver, and spending about 1 week every month there, for the past 2 years, kind of falls in the middle of what you both said.

Granville is usually busy during the day, as it still has a bunch of offices, and Thursday-Saturday at night. It has been getting increasingly sketchy, however, and less busy, over the past couple of years.
Hastings is busy during the day (office crowd) and dead at night
Robson is busy, but I know many a restaurant in Yaletown that are struggling quite a lot, and the situation has been deteriorating quite a lot. One of the most cited reasons is, surprise surprise, safety.
Burrard is definitely the brightest spot in Vancouver, IMO. It has remained busy and apparently impervious to the degrading safety situation.

A lot of the businesses I used to go to, when I first started going to Vancouver regularly, have closed. Some more have opened, but the overall feel is that there are more empty storefronts now than there were in 2021. One explanation I've hear from a lot of people is that, after the COVID incentives went away a lot of businesses started to really struggle, as demand didn't exactly make up for the difference. That coupled with the high inflation and the lower influx of tourists, compared to pre-COVID, has brought a bunch of these places down.

Office vacancy is high. Proportionally, might be lower than Edmonton's, but the sheer amount of vacant space is somewhat scary. Opposite from their residential market, their office market is seeing leases go down so that landlords can lease up, or even just hold on to/renew current leases.

Generally, I don't feel much safer in DT Vancouver than I feel in DT Edmonton. I see, and hear about, just as much crime, if not more, and the homeless population has been increasing steadily and, with it, problems related to aggressive drug users, etc. The biggest difference in this perception of safety has to do with the fact that Vancouver has a disproportionally high residential population, so at any given time, there are more "regular" people out and about. Also, the issues with drug use in public spaces, property damage and aggressive behaviour is just as bad.

I can confirm a lot of this. I just came back a few weeks ago from downtown Van and did a lot of exploring on my own (3rd time in the last year and a half) and there's a lot of lessons that we can take but after a little bit, the luster of the city is becoming less and less and I'm starting to see more negatives. I was debating writing something similar to this to compare Edmonton as well.

Granville has gotten increasingly sketchy. Back in the spring, I probably had the first "get out of here now, run back to your hotel" moment and it hasn't really subsided. Maybe I'm just more used to Edmonton's downtown but it's not all roses in Vancouver. Super anecdotal as well but I swear I saw the most amount of sketchy people on a Skytrain ride to Surrey than I have taking the LRT here occasionally over the last year.

Robson is busy, but even then I saw paramedics with someone OD'ing in Robson one morning as well.

Frankly, I love Vancouver's urbanism (where it's found) but the glaring wealth inequality has become more and more noticeable to me, and it's extremely off-putting once my eyes were opened to it.

 

[ChazYEG]

I can confirm a lot of this. I just came back a few weeks ago from downtown Van and did a lot of exploring on my own (3rd time in the last year and a half) and there's a lot of lessons that we can take but after a little bit, the luster of the city is becoming less and less and I'm starting to see more negatives. I was debating writing something similar to this to compare Edmonton as well.

Exactly! When you start losing the tourist goggles and see the city from a more grounded perspective, the problems start to be more glaring.

Granville has gotten increasingly sketchy. Back in the spring, I probably had the first "get out of here now, run back to your hotel" moment and it hasn't really subsided. Maybe I'm just more used to Edmonton's downtown but it's not all roses in Vancouver.

The amount of open drug use I've seen on Granville and surrounding streets, at all times of the day, is CRAZY! Being harassed by people, or witnessing harassment is a regular occurrence, regardless of the time of say, as well. And you'll also get the same things you get here: the yelling crazies, the fights between addicts, the urine smell... Not claiming Edmonton is doing great on that department, but certainly people glamourizing Vancouver and shitting on our city doesn't help (and it's not fair).

Super anecdotal as well but I swear I saw the most amount of sketchy people on a Skytrain ride to Surrey than I have taking the LRT here occasionally over the last year.

On the realm of anecdotes, I've been feeling the same thing every time I hop on the Skytrain. The Waterfront station is feeling sketchier by the hour. Not uncommon for bench inside of the station to be covered in needles, depending on the time of day.

Robson is busy, but even then I saw paramedics with someone OD'ing in Robson one morning as well.

Relatively common occurrence. Yaletown in general is becoming a shitshow. I'm glad that's no longer my main focus/destination (working for a company on Burrard, now)

Frankly, I love Vancouver's urbanism (where it's found) but the glaring wealth inequality has become more and more noticeable to me, and it's extremely off-putting once my eyes were opened to it.

Their urbanism is nice, but far from as revolutionary as people like to tout it as being. And the wealth inequality there is only going to contribute more to these issues we're talking about.

All-in-all, none of this is to say that there isn't a lot we could learn from Vancouver (and I think we're kind of doing some of it, even if unintentionally), like focusing on building a residential growth DT, instead of a focus on office towers (like Calgary did). They have a significantly better transit, overall (especially their busses), and the maintenance and upkeep of their infrastructure is something we should aspire to. But one thing we really need to do is stop glamourizing Vancouver (or any other city), understand our urban dynamic, learn what we can from other places and adapt these lessons to our reality.

On another thread we were discussing TODs, and how they work in Vancouver or Toronto. Edmonton has a different dynamic, that is very unlikely to change (a de-centralized workforce), so we should be playing our TODs to that tune: focus on the local radius pedestrian experience and connect it to services and entertainment, instead of crying because we don't have as many downtown jobs, for example. And not necessarily focus on high-rises, but densely packed mid-rises like we're doing by the Stadium or in Century Park, instead of dreaming about Metrotown or Surrey's shiny skyscrapers.

 

[Romanov]

I've been living in van (kits) for a few months now. A few takeaways:

- vancouver is an early riser city and nightlife thins out around midnight on weekends.
- the homeless situation downtown van in some ways is similar to Edmonton. Van has more homeless masked by strong foot traffic. Also, a lot is pushed to east side dt and east industrial lands. Still, I see fights breaking out and open drug use while waiting for a bus along Granville Street near Davie.
- I will say there seems to be more vandalism and unchecked aggression in Edmonton on average. litter too.
- agree, the disparity between the haves and have nots is really in your face in vancouver. Depressing.
- the rain and clouds. Depressing. Whereas snow and ice can also be Depressing in Edmonton.
- ubc land is isolated and sterile. No good bike routes either.
- vancouver is a more international city and interesting opportunities for work and learning here.
- as much as I like the idea of densification, I do miss the calmer nature of some Edmonton streets like whyte or 124. Everywhere in vancouver proper is very busy and sometimes overwhelming.
- on average more things happening in vancouver in terms of events. Maybe commensurate with larger population.
- Way less chains in van. Good thing but also a bad thing. At least with chains there is a predictable standard of quality.

 

[ChazYEG]

- vancouver is an early riser city and nightlife thins out around midnight on weekends.

That has always annoyed me.

- I will say there seems to be more vandalism and unchecked aggression in Edmonton on average. litter too.

On average, maybe yes. But it's been degrading quite rapidly over the past 2 years, at least. When I first started spending time there, those were rare. Now they're almost as frequent as here. Litter is just as bad, but they're better at cleaning up quickly (see my comment about upkeep/maintenance)

- agree, the disparity between the haves and have nots is really in your face in vancouver. Depressing.
- the rain and clouds. Depressing. Whereas snow and ice can also be Depressing in Edmonton.

The disparity thing is really shocking and depressing.
As for weather, it's very personal. I'll take a very cold, sunny day over the mild temperatures with rain and clouds EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. We're still in October and I am already planning my winter ahead so I can spend less time in Vancouver because of this. Snow and ice are more inconvenient, IMO, but the psychological effect of the doom and gloom outweighs it, for me.

- vancouver is a more international city and interesting opportunities for work and learning here.

It depends on the field. Other than construction, blue collar jobs are very hard to come by in Vancouver, and despite the myth, loads of people actively choose those, over white collar jobs. Also, regarding learning opportunities, it's very relative. But in terms of the sheer amount of jobs and learning institutions, it goes without saying that the larger the city, the more of these you'll see.

- on average more things happening in vancouver in terms of events. Maybe commensurate with larger population.

See above. But also, Edmonton does suffer A LOT from lack of advertising of its events. It's amazing how much stuff goes around here, and no one knows it's going on. But being a more prominent hub, a tourist hotspot and substantially larger, it's expected that there'll be more going on. But I'll wager that proportionally, we're not lagging behind nearly as much as people seem to think.



Side note: I could make a living of deconstructing Vancouver and pointing out its flaws. I absolutely loathe the place and can keep going. Please, keep giving me ammo, I'm having a blast!

 

[Kosy123]

A Flood of Newcomers to Edmonton, Canada, Are Finding a Lot More Than Great Skiing

A growing, vibrant city core—with top dining options—reflects Alberta’s oil and gas wealth

www.mansionglobal.com

Posted this on the wrong thread lol so had to delete and repost this, but I think this is the first time I've seen someone point out our ski facilities/ski proximity as a draw for Edmonton

 

[IanO]

I've been living in van (kits) for a few months now. A few takeaways:

- vancouver is an early riser city and nightlife thins out around midnight on weekends.
- the homeless situation downtown van in some ways is similar to Edmonton. Van has more homeless masked by strong foot traffic. Also, a lot is pushed to east side dt and east industrial lands. Still, I see fights breaking out and open drug use while waiting for a bus along Granville Street near Davie.
- I will say there seems to be more vandalism and unchecked aggression in Edmonton on average. litter too.
- agree, the disparity between the haves and have nots is really in your face in vancouver. Depressing.
- the rain and clouds. Depressing. Whereas snow and ice can also be Depressing in Edmonton.
- ubc land is isolated and sterile. No good bike routes either.
- vancouver is a more international city and interesting opportunities for work and learning here.
- as much as I like the idea of densification, I do miss the calmer nature of some Edmonton streets like whyte or 124. Everywhere in vancouver proper is very busy and sometimes overwhelming.
- on average more things happening in vancouver in terms of events. Maybe commensurate with larger population.
- Way less chains in van. Good thing but also a bad thing. At least with chains there is a predictable standard of quality.

Kinda sorta, but Granville, Robson and a few other places are usually VERY busy until 1-2am, if not later.

The kicker is normalized use in Van versus Edmonton and how disproportionate the number of folks on the streets of Edmonton feels.

UBC lands are over-planned, but not really sterile and have a quality of urban design and architecture Edmonton can only dream of.

 

[ChazYEG]

Kinda sorta, but Granville, Robson and a few other places are usually VERY busy until 1-2am, if not later.

The kicker is normalized use in Van versus Edmonton and how disproportionate the number of folks on the streets of Edmonton feels.

UBC lands are over-planned, but not really sterile and have a quality of urban design and architecture Edmonton can only dream of.

Does Vancouver pay you money to advertise them?
I've seen lots of people in this forum say good things about that city, but you tend to behave almost like a poster boy.

 

[IanO]

I enjoy Vancouver a lot, have lived there before, visit regularly as my dad lives there and many have regarded it as THE 'poster boy' for urban form, design and lifestyle/livability for two + decades.