Tower 101 | 175m | 50s | Regency Developments | DER + Associates

What do you think of this project?

  • Total voters
    50
_urbanite said:
Real-estate brokers and or property developers often pay to run advertisements disguised as news articles to try and create a buzz around a property. I wouldn't doubt that's what Great Gulf is trying to do in Calgary
Click to expand...
They may at some point, but this was a real article. Papers label advertorials as such, and there's a reporter byline on the story
 
CaptainBL said:
This is the issue I take with voluntarily sharing inside info and insights on this forum. We do not always need to say something positive because what you read you don't like so it is labeled negative and doom and gloom.

We very much can, and do live in an Edmonton where good things happen like MacEwan, and conversely our downtown still needs a lot of work. That doesnt make what I said negative or doom and gloom or is intended to poo poo and be a meanie head to Edmonton. What I shared is a reality that comes from conversations and involvements with developers, investors, executives, etc. Out of the projects being built in downtown, every single one is being built by an Edmonton developer (ONE, Edgar, Westrich) so maybe outside developers are on to something?

The reality is that this specific site has not been attractive to certain local developers for a number of reasons. Downtown as a whole has not been attractive to outsiders for a number of reasons. As much as you and I are boosters and should show confidence in our downtown, that will not change CPPIB (just for example) from investing YOUR pension dollars in a site that doesnt meet their return criteria for your pension. Thats not negative, thats not doom and gloom, that is a reality of downtown Edmonton and its attractiveness to investors.

At the same time other projects are moving forward which is great. But we dont need to kumbaya because something said you dont like so its negative and doom and gloom.
Click to expand...
My doom and gloom sentiment wasn’t intended to be directed at yourself or anyone individually, apologies if it came off as such. Always appreciate behind the scenes insights and have no dispute with the validity.

My commentary relates to a bit of a desire for Edmonton to show a little confidence and work on ways to inspire confidence in the market amongst others. It’s a complicated issue no doubt.
 
BASE said:
We have 3 big residential projects underway around stationlands, The Parks, & Falcon along with an upcoming office tower for CWB in Ice District. I agree there is a bit too much gloom and doom. If we had absolutely nothing going on I could see it and yes downtown has its troubles but for every former BMO site there are things to be excited about (MacEwan school of business) so lets not live and die on every lot that isn't being developed this instant. A lot of talk about institutional confidence in the market, I would say boosters like ourselves need to show a little confidence first or at least save our negativity for that streetcar/LRT Frankentrain that should be opening in the next yearish.
Click to expand...

An up coming tower for CWB?

^
Agree with you on that one Ian.
 
Clearshades said:
The less work you have to do on a lot would definitely mean a more expediently process for sure.
Click to expand...
assuming of course that that work is either costly or time-consuming relative to the project itself. in this case, i think the impact on the project, and therefor any residual land value, is probably nominal at best.
 
CaptainBL said:
This property has been privately shopped on the market by the seller for some time and has not sold. It is definitely for sale and not a test the market listing. The seller is looking for liquidity.

Informationally, a few of the detriments to being privately shopped have been:

1. Recently, institutional capital from outside Edmonton has not had a positive view on downtown for obvious reasons. Institutions are preferring to invest elsewhere with less risk and better returns
2. Downtown office vacancy, commercial and retail vacancy, and general vagrancy
3. The big players in Edmonton that could take on this land/project are tied up (Maclab has a lot of capital tied up in Garneau and the Parks; Pangman is tied up on a couple of large projects like Edmonton Motors not moving forward; AIMCo has refocused their real estate portfolio with less concentration in AB and already owns across the street) and one of the big players, Regency, is selling the property.

So I wouldn't go as far as saying this will go quickly. You may be surprised how slow it goes, especially given it has been privately for sale for some time.

Edit: What this site needs is a buyer from out of town who doesnt know the Edmonton market, doesnt know that CC is vacant and downtown is struggling and looks at this site as "wow a vacant site in the central business district of a major Canadian city!", or, a company not from Edmonton looking to expand into Alberta and build an owner/user office tower.
Click to expand...

I followed up on this for those that are interested and as I predicted in my note above from March for the reasons I listed this piece of land is STILL publicly listed for sale. There have been some can kickers but the fact that a piece of land in the commercial district of the downtown of a major Canadian city ripe for a hotel and/or office development has been both privately shopped with little to no interest and publicly shopped on the market for 135 days (as of today July 22) is not a good sign of confidence in the downtown Edmonton market.

For those on this forum that think downtown is ok as-is or simply that this is a negative poop on downtown post, I am presenting you with the objective fact that this was privately for sale and there were no buyers. Since then this has been publicly on the market for 135 days and no parties have been interested in transacting a value or vision.

For those that realize that downtown has significant issues preventing it from moving forward, this is an objective sign that you are correct and a wake up call that things need to change significantly.

And no, pricing asked by the seller has not been the issue at stake here.
 
Last edited:
^
all development land costs for a developer are a reflection of residual value, not simply what can be negotiated with a vendor.

for office and hotel and retail, current demand and market value for the end product by both tenants and buyers less current construction costs and the cost of capital whether for equity or debt financing are likely to yield net negative values for the land.

unfortunately it may be an awful lot longer than 135 days (as in longer by months or years, not days or weeks) before this becomes an attractive acquisition.
 
kcantor said:
^
all development land costs for a developer are a reflection of residual value, not simply what can be negotiated with a vendor.

for office and hotel and retail, current demand and market value for the end product by both tenants and buyers less current construction costs and the cost of capital whether for equity or debt financing are likely to yield net negative values for the land.

unfortunately it may be an awful lot longer than 135 days (as in longer by months or years, not days or weeks) before this becomes an attractive acquisition.
Click to expand...
Ken, yes while you are absolutely correct and to summarize for others on this forum (in layman’s terms Ken is effectively saying developers are looking for a return), some developers or owners will look at a specific return on investment (say that they need a 20% return) but justify it based on a future vision that the market will support that investment one day. Every party that has looked at this investment has not yet believed that the market will support their own respective return in the future. They have believed that there are not enough factors in place (and my god there’s an arena district, LRT investment, etc) that the fundamentals of a real estate investment in a core piece of land still do not make sense for many (all so far) potential buyers.
 
You must log in or register to post here.

Back
Top