Massey Ferguson Building Redevelopment | ?m | 6s | Rise Real Estate | WZMH

What do you think of this project?

  • Total voters
    37
It comes down to property values, rate of return and cost of construction. Here, property values are lower, rate of return is also lower and cost of construction is higher than Southern Ontario, Lower Mainland, the Okanagan and even Calgary. That, plus the lack of an architecture school/program, results in the architectural quality of projects we get. That won't likely change unless we see one of those three things I mentioned change.
 
Avenuer said:
It comes down to property values, rate of return and cost of construction. Here, property values are lower, rate of return is also lower and cost of construction is higher than Southern Ontario, Lower Mainland, the Okanagan and even Calgary. That, plus the lack of an architecture school/program, results in the architectural quality of projects we get. That won't likely change unless we see one of those three things I mentioned change.
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What makes the cost of construction higher? Is it mostly labor or materials/other capital?
 
Avenuer said:
Labour and materials (we are pretty far from any other major metropolitan area, so harder to get people to build stuff and also to get the stuff to build).
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Edmonton is a major metropolitan area in itself with a sizeable workforce in skilled trades and construction, if anything that should be more of a problem for Guelph.
 
David A said:
Edmonton is a major metropolitan area in itself with a sizeable workforce in skilled trades and construction, if anything that should be more of a problem for Guelph.
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Not really, Guelph is on the edge of the GTA, which itself is an hour and a bit from the U.S. border. There are nearly 10 million people within a 4300 km radius of Guelph - from a supply chain perspective, two very different things. When you have access to way more markets, products, etc., as well as customers and workforce, costs go down.
 
IanO said:
Average rents in Guelph are also SIGNIFICANTLY higher than in Edmonton.
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Then developers in Edmonton should not exacerbate that problem by building cheap crap that keeps rents low -- same story/different players from the 60s/70s when those damn walkups were being reproduced like rabbits.
 
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As to material costs -- the ingredients of concrete are abundant in Alberta; framing lumber and timber are abundant in Alberta; almost anything with a petrochemical base is abundant in Alberta (insulation, all manner of construction panels... on and on). Alberta has a massive and growing petrochemical industry, with a strong focus on producing essential, high-value building blocks for construction materials, such as polyethylene, polypropylene, and ethylene derivatives. As Canada's leading petrochemical producer, the province holds ~80% of Canada's ethylene capacity, driven by major industrial hubs like the Alberta Industrial Heartland. West Fraser is Alberta’s largest construction lumber producer and the largest in North America, with a massive capacity of 7.0 billion board feet. Operating numerous mills in Alberta (including a 2023 expansion), it dominates the market, far exceeding other national giants like Canfor and Tolko, which also have significant operations. Alberta has a specialized glass product manufacturing industry, primarily focused on fabricating, tempering, and laminating glass for construction and commercial use rather than raw, large-scale glass melting. Major manufacturers like Vitrum Glass Group in Rocky View County and Insul-Lite Manufacturing in Calgary produce sealed units, tempered glass, and custom architectural glass. What is lacking is imagination on the part of developers and their downstream hires.
 
Avenuer said:
Labour and materials (we are pretty far from any other major metropolitan area, so harder to get people to build stuff and also to get the stuff to build).
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Some building materials such as dimensional lumber and plywood / osb are less expensive in the Edmonton market than elsewhere. Reason being, commodities trade for whatever price a market will bear and Edmonton is close to mills in Grand Prairie and Slave Lake regions. In other words, the mill price for lumber and plywood is the same for everybody but it grows as the FOB price grows. As an extreme example, the FOB price of lumber in Edmonton is cheaper than it is in Japan because of the additional transportation cost (disregarding any currency adjustments). So could an argument be made that the lower cost of some building materials is partly responsible for cheap buildings? There is some economic theory to support that argument and if there is a market for cheap buildings, then in the absence of any regulatory or architectural controls to prevent their construction, they'll be built.
 
IanO said:
Average rents in Guelph are also SIGNIFICANTLY higher than in Edmonton.
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This is student housing project in a town about 1 hour drive from Toronto...But still they are going for quality and beautiful architecture.

It just shows how much local developers in Edmonton have lowered the bar so low that we end up with garbage right in the centre of the city coming from out of town investors.
 
Well... they got a motion of non-support from EDC... I just find it a bit concerning, since they mentioned that the project had a private review/ internal review, idk how they call it. And all, if not most, of the recommendations were already mentioned. I feel like the developer is not going to change the design a lot. Hopefully, hopefully.... they do address the window sizing at least.

 
While the rejection of the present scheme is grand (a majority), the implementation of potential solutions seems to be sitting on a rather weak palette of opinion.
 
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