Valley Line LRT/ Valley Line West | ?m | ?s | City of Edmonton

I think an LRT line should be buried or built above where there is high traffic or pedestrian activity (creating more congestion), or where there is an opportunity to create a new traffic route (like the Tawatina bridge or the proposed bridge over Yellowhead Trail and the Calder Yards.
 
No, it isn't like asking that. I was asking specifically why it should be buried here. There isn't always a clear benefit to burying a line and when the line is low-floor, the rationale to burying the line goes against the reason for building a low floor system to begin with. Access to and from the train is easier at grade and as Dave pointed out, allows for the money to be spent across the entire system immediately instead of over engineering things for the arguably mediocre gains that come with burying a line. I wasn't looking for a condescending answer. Let's be better than that, shall we?

a train being low floor does not miraculously make it better suited to an urban environment. you can make a train with a raised, high-floor platform “urban” style.

burying is handy in denser areas that are more prone to congestion, although as dave points out, it isn’t trains causing congestion. there is a whole argument that it’s actually just cars getting in the way of transit. for example , the slow streetcars in toronto are only slow because cars are getting in their way. it’s true, but it doesnt change the fact that they’re much slower than the underground subway. the valley line isn’t built yet but i’m not going to be surprised if it takes longer to go through downtown on it vs the capital/metro lines.

burying allows an lrt to bypass existing roads if it chooses to and provides a warm shelter for patrons during cold weather months. it can more easily allow for faster service, though this could in theory happen at street-level too if designed specifically for this.

and yes, i am well aware that “nobody is asking that”, but my point is asking what you are is akin to asking why have transit buried anywhere.
 
Street surfaces are planar or two dimensional; burying anything (cars or trains -- a la Elon Musk's Boring Co.) makes the the transit element 3 dimensional and is therefore bound to have positive impacts re "congestion".
 
This Saturday afternoon.
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I had a recent discussion about Cities and the fact that they under-perform when it comes to capital cost expenditures and over-perform vis a vis maintenance and operating costs. So a non-forward thinking City would go cheap on Capital Costs even though the operational costs of a project would completely subsume and overrun the total of the two combined. Edmonton is going to pay dearly for operational costs on the current design of LRT, granted that an LSM-propulsion system is more expensive up front as a capital expense. Taxpayers gripe about Capital Costs and shrug their shoulders when it comes to operational costs -- good leaders are able to explain the two and differentiate the economics therein.
there’s an assumption here that edmonton actually does a decent job completing maintenance and appropriate preventative measures in managing its infrastructure whether parks or bridges or roads or lrt infrastructure that i’m not sure is warranted. if it’s not going to get done anyway, selecting a more expensive maintenance option isn’t really more costly. :(
 
I think an LRT line should be buried or built above where there is high traffic or pedestrian activity (creating more congestion), or where there is an opportunity to create a new traffic route (like the Tawatina bridge or the proposed bridge over Yellowhead Trail and the Calder Yards.
Wait, so again, we're making transit more expensive to build, operate and maintain because we're giving priority to cars?
We're looking at the whole thing with an approach that doesn't make much sense, IMO. The whole idea of at grade, low-floor is that it's more dynamically integrated to the urban fabric and its no as expensive as full metro systems, being financially more interesting to "small" big cities, like Edmonton.
The costs of building an underground LRT line are, essentially, prohibitive is we want to build it all the way to some of the more distant suburbs and serve more os the city.
Also, not necessarily congestion is a bad thing, especially if we're talking downtown and TOD areas. We want this areas to be less aggressive for pedestrians, with lower speeds, etc. We want people to be able to see and identify storefronts from their cars (and from transit), which is particularly good for smaller local businesses which are not chains and depend more on visibility to keep their doors open.
We need to stop building out cities for cars, rather than for people and, with this in mind and given Edmonton's characteristics, I believe that the line being above ground is a good thing and has the potential for a really positive impact on the city.

As for the speed of the system, itself, as long as it has priority over cars, it will be relatively fast in the downtown core and, in the other areas, it's going to be even faster, as the stations are further away from each other and there's less intersections to be concerned with. By the way, if you notice, a lot of the stops are right at a traffic light, which is a very intelligent design idea, because it reduces the number of times the trains stops, if timed correctly.
Taking personal experience into account, Rio's downtown os much bigger, busier and complex than Edmonton's, due to it's historical characteristics and for being a heritage area. It's LRT covers, with 3 lines, 27km, one of them is fast enough to go from the intermunicipal bus station (which is a major transportation hub) to the downtown airport in less than 25 minutes, crossing the whole downtown area (which is roughly 3 times larger and A LOT denser than Edmonton's). The other two are, somewhat, circular lines within downtown, covering most of it, with stops within walking distance from the main roads, which improved the mobility in the area, boosted businesses in street that were "abandoned" and, overall, had a hugely positive impact in the city, much more than anticipated and, for the most part, even unexpectedly, given the degradation level of Rio's downtown. Now imagine if it had been planned with this whole urban development impacts in mind, how bigger the impact could've been?

Now, before any of you point out that the weather is somewhat "better" and that it's easier yo have at grade lines in such an environment, having lived there, I can assure you that it's no easier or healthier to wait for a train/bus with 40ºC (45~50 with humidex), under the sun, in the middle of a busy and heavily polluted area, than it is to do it with the extreme opposite here. Summer there lasts as long as winters here and, in some ways, it's even harder to endure and much more uncomfortable, for some people.
 
I like the idea of grade-separated lines for high volume areas too @The_Cat. I don't think this means giving priority to cars necessarily, rather giving the priority to transit and the result is an efficiency/safety benefit to all others (pedestrian, vehicle, bus)? A city has to flow, regardless, and make consideration for the City Plan as we approach 2 million people.
You make a lot of good points @ChazYEG, low-floor is more dynamically entwined city fabric, I just think some intersections are inherently problematic. An example might be the Centre LRT study, I'd like to see the pros/cons of burying the LRT under the heavy pedestrian & vehicle segments of Whyte Ave in the Old Strath area, and maybe elevated LRT sections over 83rd & 75th streets. I don't know if it would even be practical to have it all at running at grade? Tradeoffs need to be considered to manage potential impacts on pedestrian space and vehicle space, green space, and (multi-modal) transit hub efficiency.
 
I like the idea of grade-separated lines for high volume areas too @The_Cat. I don't think this means giving priority to cars necessarily, rather giving the priority to transit and the result is an efficiency/safety benefit to all others (pedestrian, vehicle, bus)? A city has to flow, regardless, and make consideration for the City Plan as we approach 2 million people.
You make a lot of good points @ChazYEG, low-floor is more dynamically entwined city fabric, I just think some intersections are inherently problematic. An example might be the Centre LRT study, I'd like to see the pros/cons of burying the LRT under the heavy pedestrian & vehicle segments of Whyte Ave in the Old Strath area, and maybe elevated LRT sections over 83rd & 75th streets. I don't know if it would even be practical to have it all at running at grade? Tradeoffs need to be considered to manage potential impacts on pedestrian space and vehicle space, green space, and (multi-modal) transit hub efficiency.
I agree with you that there's a few problematic intersections, but to be honest, I'm in favour of using creative ways to solve these problems, even though it is not always possible. One more straightforward solution might be having overpasses or underpasses in the places where it's feasible, instead of having entire sections and stations underground or elevated.
I'm well aware that there's no simples solutions for our little conundrum, as it involves dozens os variables, but I also believe that a bit of ingenuity and out-of-the-box thinking are all that we need to come up with said solutions
 
I like the idea of grade-separated lines for high volume areas too @The_Cat. I don't think this means giving priority to cars necessarily, rather giving the priority to transit and the result is an efficiency/safety benefit to all others (pedestrian, vehicle, bus)? A city has to flow, regardless, and make consideration for the City Plan as we approach 2 million people.
You make a lot of good points @ChazYEG, low-floor is more dynamically entwined city fabric, I just think some intersections are inherently problematic. An example might be the Centre LRT study, I'd like to see the pros/cons of burying the LRT under the heavy pedestrian & vehicle segments of Whyte Ave in the Old Strath area, and maybe elevated LRT sections over 83rd & 75th streets. I don't know if it would even be practical to have it all at running at grade? Tradeoffs need to be considered to manage potential impacts on pedestrian space and vehicle space, green space, and (multi-modal) transit hub efficiency.

How about burying the vehicle segment instead and leaving Whyte for just pedestrians and LRT?
 

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