Valley Line LRT | ?m | ?s | City of Edmonton

edmontonidiot

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I think Councillor Cartmell is 100% correct here. The P3 model is not responsible for the cracks, but it is not a good idea anyways.

P3 model not responsible for latest Valley Line LRT issues, Edmonton city councillor says​


I really like Tim Cartmell. I've send him a couple of emails in the past, and he responded back every time with thoughtful responses. I think he's wrong though, and he's moving goal posts. Nobody is suggesting that the P3 model itself caused the cracks, but instead, it lead to them.

The issue with the P3 model is it usually leads to the lowest bidder. A major project, with this many hands on deck, didn't fail because of design errors, and suggesting such, is a little much. You can't cut in some areas. There should have been multiple opportunities to correct these so-called design failures. How did that not happen? Where is the oversight?

I would be willing to bet that either TransEd was capable of completing the project, but felt pressured to complete deadlines, or they weren't, and the project should have been awarded to a higher bidder.

If it wasn't a P3 model, the City of Edmonton would have more say, more responsibility and more oversight, which is what makes P3 models so problematic. I don't believe for a second that this couldn't have been foreseen. I don't have a lot of faith in the city, but I have less faith in any contractors in this model. It's a recipe for disaster.
 

EdmTrekker

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I think Councillor Cartmell is 100% correct here. The P3 model is not responsible for the cracks, but it is not a good idea anyways.

P3 model not responsible for latest Valley Line LRT issues, Edmonton city councillor says​


Of course it is - the City agreed to that model and it is what it is and delivered what it did - a fuck up. Quit putting lipstick on the pig!!
 

northlands

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I really like Tim Cartmell. I've send him a couple of emails in the past, and he responded back every time with thoughtful responses. I think he's wrong though, and he's moving goal posts. Nobody is suggesting that the P3 model itself caused the cracks, but instead, it lead to them.

The issue with the P3 model is it usually leads to the lowest bidder. A major project, with this many hands on deck, didn't fail because of design errors, and suggesting such, is a little much. You can't cut in some areas. There should have been multiple opportunities to correct these so-called design failures. How did that not happen? Where is the oversight?

I would be willing to bet that either TransEd was capable of completing the project, but felt pressured to complete deadlines, or they weren't, and the project should have been awarded to a higher bidder.

If it wasn't a P3 model, the City of Edmonton would have more say, more responsibility and more oversight, which is what makes P3 models so problematic. I don't believe for a second that this couldn't have been foreseen. I don't have a lot of faith in the city, but I have less faith in any contractors in this model. It's a recipe for disaster.
The P3 model is absolutely flawed for a project of this scope, and I love to crap on the City, but I'm struggling to see this as a low bidder issue. There were only three bidders for the project and supposedly a more holistic approach was taken which included evaluating the experience of the consortiums in delivering large scale infrastructure and light rail projects.

TransEd's design and construction is by Bechtel (the largest EPC firm in the world) and EllisDon (one of the largest GCs in Canada), plus assistance from IBI & Arup (both experienced consultants in the engineering/project mgmt world). Of course, there's a lot more to proper due diligence in procurement for a project of this scale beyond those simple metrics, but these aren't dinky inexperienced companies so I think it's fairly safe to assume there was due diligence done. I think your former point was more to the mark (pressured to complete deadlines), in which that's a failure of the consortium and hard to place onto the City given the nature of P3 projects with the little oversight nor responsibility. If TransEd felt they could not meet the outlined project milestones, they should have either included that in their bid or not submitted a bid. Maybe they did and the City did move forward with TransEd regardless, but I suspect we'll never know.

I think all we can really expect from here until it opens is a helluva lot of finger pointing, but for us on the outside looking in, it's pretty hard to discern the real liability.
 

edmontonidiot

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The P3 model is absolutely flawed for a project of this scope, and I love to crap on the City, but I'm struggling to see this as a low bidder issue. There were only three bidders for the project and supposedly a more holistic approach was taken which included evaluating the experience of the consortiums in delivering large scale infrastructure and light rail projects.

TransEd's design and construction is by Bechtel (the largest EPC firm in the world) and EllisDon (one of the largest GCs in Canada), plus assistance from IBI & Arup (both experienced consultants in the engineering/project mgmt world). Of course, there's a lot more to proper due diligence in procurement for a project of this scale beyond those simple metrics, but these aren't dinky inexperienced companies so I think it's fairly safe to assume there was due diligence done. I think your former point was more to the mark (pressured to complete deadlines), in which that's a failure of the consortium and hard to place onto the City given the nature of P3 projects with the little oversight nor responsibility. If TransEd felt they could not meet the outlined project milestones, they should have either included that in their bid or not submitted a bid. Maybe they did and the City did move forward with TransEd regardless, but I suspect we'll never know.

I think all we can really expect from here until it opens is a helluva lot of finger pointing, but for us on the outside looking in, it's pretty hard to discern the real liability.
Yeah, you might be correct on this. I thought I read somewhere, either from Mack Male or someone else adressing the issue on how bidding is set up in this model, but I dunno. I'm working, plus studying for some more some certification's. 16+ work days; my brain hurts right now.

I definitely agree on the finger pointing 100%. I doubt without any inside info, that anyone will know who’s actually at fault here.
 

David A

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Of course it is - the City agreed to that model and it is what it is and delivered what it did - a fuck up. Quit putting lipstick on the pig!!
Well less we forget, there was the Metro line big f*ck up that took years to fix and a long list of other projects with problems (bridge, overpass ....)

Different companies, different structure of project. What is the one thing all of these projects have in common - the City of Edmonton. Coincidence? N0 !!!!!!
 

Edmcowboy11

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Well less we forget, there was the Metro line big f*ck up that took years to fix and a long list of other projects with problems (bridge, overpass ....)

Different companies, different structure of project. What is the one thing all of these projects have in common - the City of Edmonton. Coincidence? N0 !!!!!!
Although at least trains were running, slow but they were running, all we get to do with the valley line is watch the empty stations.
 

EdmTrekker

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“If TransEd felt they could not meet the outlined project milestones, they should have either included that in their bid or not submitted a bid. Maybe they did and the City did move forward with TransEd regardless, but I suspect we'll never know.”

No doubt the City couof be heading to court to enforce recovery of penalty provisions if warranted and if the City is clearly not at risk. BUT as you point out if the City project team acquiesced regarding schedule, specifications or compromised anything price wise I doubt the public will see this unfold in court - the P3 will have the upper hand in exposing the City’s incompetence and the City will try to negotiate a settlement behind close doors. This assumes the City poked its nose in where it should not have … and I would bet they did.
 

IanO

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  • While public-private partnerships are “fundamentally flawed” when it comes to public transportation, the P3 model is not the reason for the latest delay of theValley Line Southeast LRT, Coun. Tim Cartmell told CBC. Mayor Amarjeet Sohi called for a comprehensive review of how the city pursues P3 projects after TransEd announced the discovery of cracks in several piers that will further delay the opening of the line, which is already two years late. Cartmell, who is a structural engineer by trade, said the delay is the result of a design mistake, not the form of the contract, and he disagreed with Sohi that a P3 restricts the city’s oversight.
 

occidentalcapital

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Both public and private delivery can result in mistakes. I wonder if we are more prone to having troubles with P3s because of Edmonton's long history of public-sector delivery and expertise. I.e. there isn't much institutional reservoir of expertise in private sector. For example, the CEO of TransEd is from Quebec. Others on the project are also from elsewhere in Canada. The larger Canadian "private-sector" has never been prominent in Edmonton, maybe lacks knowledge or awareness. Our big players are either homegrown or build it ourselves via local public sector either GoA or City.
 

itom987

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Over engineering is a developers best insurance, I bet they are kicking themselves for not doing that in the first place.
 

JNO1

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FWIW, testing going on downtown this morning.
E705A815-CF8B-46CB-906F-9BF6422B7322.jpeg
 

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