Glenco
Senior Member
For your information the original fare was $50. Apparently you wasn’t aware.
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Commuter & Regional Rail
- Thread starter Daveography
- Start date
thommyjo
Senior Member
I’m seeing $27.50, which was quickly moved to $12 after launch?
$30 is definitely steep. But 10-15 feels competitive and has shown to be widely accepted now in our big cities.
Gronk!
Senior Member
Are you guys talking about the UP Express train in Toronto? Because when I flew to Toronto last month, it was around $12 for a one-way trip between YYZ and Union Station. And it wasn't just business executives on the train, it was mostly your Average Joe and Jane units.
A UP Express train is sorely needed in Edmonton.
A UP Express train is sorely needed in Edmonton.
Glenco
Senior Member
You are correct but that is still $55 for two people. My point stands people are not prepared to pay a premium fare in TO and they certainly won’t in Edmonton.
Glenco
Senior Member
No we don’t what we need is an extension of the LRT out to the airport so people who work out can use it every day not just for the occasional business trip. When funds become available is anyone’s guess but that would be the least expensive option with the greatest return.
Tropical
Active Member
I concur that extending LRT to the airport and having new neighbourhoods build around its existence has a lot of value. That said, examining the existing right of way for commuter rail is also a worthy exercise - particularly since it has potential to link Old Strathcona and Downtown directy. There is also value to using limited resources to build north to Castle Downs. As there is with BRT lines from Bonnie Doon to West Edmonton Mall (and other routes).
There is not an easy answer here, but I can tell you that we can't build all of these - and maintain our massive road network without revenue from other orders of government.
archited
Senior Member
Linking Edmonton downtown and Strathcona would also be the purview of LRT not HSR. HSR could potentially connect Old Strathcona with Cowtown if that's what you are suggesting, but to be effective speed-wise it would have to bypass the Airports otherwise it would just be an alternative to LRT.
thefreezebreeze
New Member
Isn't one of the advantages of rail is the ability to link downtown to downtown? Strathcona isn't a transport hub, but downtown is.
archited
Senior Member
^ Could be but then Strathcona would not be a stop -- it would destroy the efficiency of HSR. Speed is one thing; efficiency is another. I think the greatest efficiency and speed combination would be connecting airports with HSR, but that then leaves Red Deer out of the equation (I could see that creating some political furor if it was ever announced that way). Using Googlemaps' measuring tool the distance from the current proposed terminal end of LRT at 41 Ave SW is 5.81 miles (9.35 kilometers). At 70kph the distance could be covered by LRT in about 8 minutes (not allowing for stop and go at stations). And then there is the question "What does HSR mean?"... 200kph; 300 kph, 500 kph? For arguments sake if we use 500 kph (average accounting for acceleration/deceleration between stations) then the travel time to Calgary's YYC from Edmonton's YEG along the most efficient route is 246 kilometers (as the crow flies), taking about 1/2 an hour. If Red Deer was made a stop it could be achieved with a "side rail" spurring off the direct route between Edmonton and Calgary (that might be the most politically acceptable, especially if the connection was to Red Deers airport) with choices for either a midpoint stop or not when traveling between Alberta's two major cities.
Ignoring Red Deer and Calgary for the moment so we can focus back on Edmonton, the ride by LRT to 41st ave. is 8 minutes and allowing for stops along the route from 41st Ave to downtown the total ride from airport to downtown would be between 38 and 48 minutes. All of that assumes wanting to go downtown as a destination or as a connecting point to other LRT destinations. All other stops along the Capital line route south of Downtown is of course less time consuming. For example a trip to Century Park from YEG would be about 11 minutes, to Southgate about 14 minutes, and to U of A about 34 minutes. If there were lateral cross-city connections (say by aerial tram) at any one of these Capital Line hubs then the functional efficiency of LRT combined with ATT (Aerial Tram Transit) makes the whole system the most efficient and the most desirable end-result in terms of both speed and efficiency.
Ignoring Red Deer and Calgary for the moment so we can focus back on Edmonton, the ride by LRT to 41st ave. is 8 minutes and allowing for stops along the route from 41st Ave to downtown the total ride from airport to downtown would be between 38 and 48 minutes. All of that assumes wanting to go downtown as a destination or as a connecting point to other LRT destinations. All other stops along the Capital line route south of Downtown is of course less time consuming. For example a trip to Century Park from YEG would be about 11 minutes, to Southgate about 14 minutes, and to U of A about 34 minutes. If there were lateral cross-city connections (say by aerial tram) at any one of these Capital Line hubs then the functional efficiency of LRT combined with ATT (Aerial Tram Transit) makes the whole system the most efficient and the most desirable end-result in terms of both speed and efficiency.
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SarcasticMarmot
Active Member
Most lines run multiple services.
Most likely it would alternate between a downtown to downtown express and then a Edm-YEG-Red Deer-YYC-Cal service.
archited
Senior Member
^ Yes they do... but in the system that I described above multiple services demands a different route than the one I described.
EdwardEdm
Active Member
For arguments sake? This is an impossible set of parameters to use for a realistic argument! Show me a conventional HSR that operates at 500 km/h.
And the then an arrow straight route? Not realistic.
I'm not even sure if there is a maglev line that operates at 500 km/rh, and while some conventional HSR's have tested trains at well over 400 km/h under special circumstances, none operate over 400 km/h.
Realistic is 350 km/h. That is what California's HSR is designed for, and Amtrak's new Alstom HSR sets are designed for around 350 km/h, although I don't know if the NE Corridor infrastructure support that yet, beyond maybe a few sections.
A realistic route length would be similar to the QE2. Realistically the line is likely to be cheapest if it uses an existing corridor where possible, be it the QE2 or CPKC. The CPKC is slightly longer.
QE2 corridor 300 km, 350 km/h so a much better number would be an hour or so city to city (51 minutes, but being generous with 9 extra minutes for acceleration and deceleration and anything else that could occur). Add on maybe 5 minutes per extra stop so 1 hour 15 minutes or less Edmonton to Calgary with stops at both airports and Red Deer.
I think that would be the way to go. The best would probably be 3 levels of service with a local commuter-type service as well. Greyhound used to do this, and I believe Red Arrow still does. Most trips are semi-express between Edmonton and Calgary with a stop in Red Deer, with a few trips that are express and bypass Red Deer. Greyhound also had a local service that stopped at all of the small communities.
The great thing for a commuter train would be that using a HSR line will give commuter trains a much higher speed potential than something diesel hauled on existing track, so an average speed of 200 Km/h could be achievable for a commuter train. That could then allow communities like Lacombe and Ponoka to be within a 40 minute commuter train ride of Edmonton, ditto for everywhere between Calgary and Olds. What might be required for an overlapping commuter service would be 3 tracks to allow a place for locals to stop and stay out of the way for express and semi express trains.
For the cost of the infrastructure we would need to absolutely maximize it's usage.
archited
Senior Member
Japan's SCMaglev holds the world record of 603 km/h (375 mph) in a test run, with its commercial service planned to reach a maximum speed of 505 km/h (314mph). China's fastest operational commercial Maglev (Shanghai Transrapid) reaches 431 km/h (268 mph) in tests and a service speed of up to 300 km/h (186 mph). China is developing a new prototype Maglev designed to reach 600 km/h (373 mph) in the future, and research into vacuum-tube Maglevs has reported speeds of up to 1,000 km/h (621mph) in testing.
When I said for arguments sake (I didn't expect to get a counterargument so quickly) I meant let's go for the gusto but with a general Edmontonian take of "too good for this neck of the woods" I see your point. The other thing about trains at this speed is that they need a next-to-straight run (very long and shallow curves only). Sorry that my parameters set you off. The corollary of my argument was more aligned with your thinking and that is why I said the better solution includes a much slower LRT extension of the Capital line to the airport. I will grant you that an HSR Maglev train between Edmonton and Calgary is the next closest thing to "unlikely"
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thefreezebreeze
New Member
In my mind, best case scenario is 350kmph HSR Edm-YEG-Red Deer-YYC-Cal with an express route downtown to downtown and having the LRT connector to YEG/YYC (constructed on their own time). If the lines can be built to allow regional (slower) commuter trains as well that would be stellar.
@archited you're right about not having Strathcona as a stop. Really the choice would be where to put the Edm station and while Strathcona would be the cheapest, it's much much less useful right now than a downtown station. The only way I could ever see Strathcona being worth it as the main Edm station is if there was an East-West train along whyte as well as a direct downtown connector (gondola). If it isn't possible to build that or a downtown station, then just stop it at YEG and connect the LRT (the least desirable option tbh).
@archited you're right about not having Strathcona as a stop. Really the choice would be where to put the Edm station and while Strathcona would be the cheapest, it's much much less useful right now than a downtown station. The only way I could ever see Strathcona being worth it as the main Edm station is if there was an East-West train along whyte as well as a direct downtown connector (gondola). If it isn't possible to build that or a downtown station, then just stop it at YEG and connect the LRT (the least desirable option tbh).
chrisvazquez7
Active Member
Strathcona and downtown should both have stops in my opinion. It’s very common to see two main stations in other parts of the world. And it would hardly affect travel times between Edmonton and Calgary as the train would not be getting up to speed anyways until it’s out of the city limits.
I imagine a main central station at 109 street and Jasper, where CP used to have their station. Then a Strathcona station just south of Whyte Ave in CPKC’s South Edmonton yard. The tracks between the two stations would be shared by many types of services with different stopping patterns. Imagine if you had HSR, regional, and local trains all making stops at the two stations effectively giving you departures every 5-10 minutes between them. This type of model is used all over Europe and is very effective. Not only does it increase the catchment area for intercity travel, but it also facilitates mass transit levels of connectivity between Downtown and Strathcona.
I imagine a main central station at 109 street and Jasper, where CP used to have their station. Then a Strathcona station just south of Whyte Ave in CPKC’s South Edmonton yard. The tracks between the two stations would be shared by many types of services with different stopping patterns. Imagine if you had HSR, regional, and local trains all making stops at the two stations effectively giving you departures every 5-10 minutes between them. This type of model is used all over Europe and is very effective. Not only does it increase the catchment area for intercity travel, but it also facilitates mass transit levels of connectivity between Downtown and Strathcona.